Disney could be losing Mickey Mouse

Sascha: [00:00:02] From Equity Mates media. This is the dive. I'm your host, Sascha Kelly. After 95 years, Disney may be losing control over Mickey Mouse. The world's most famous mouse was first introduced to all of us in the 1928 animated film Steamboat Willie. Over the following 94 years, Mickey Mouse has brought in more than $80 billion to Disney through movies, merchandise, theme parks, live events, even cruises. Hello from the Magic Kingdom. 

Audio clip: [00:00:34] Wish you were here, pal. 

Sascha: [00:00:35] But on the 1st of January in 2024, that is all slated to change. Mickey is going to enter the public domain unless Disney can stop it. It's Monday, the 8th of August. And today I want to know why is Disney about to lose control of its most famous character? And what is the company going to do to stop it? To help unpack this story today, I'm joined by my colleague here at Equity Mates. It's Darcy Cordell. Darcy, welcome. 

Darcy: [00:01:02] Thanks. A couple of exciting things today. First recording in the new office and a very fun story as well. 

Sascha: [00:01:09] I mean, I grew up on Disney films, so I have a real vested interest in finding out what's going on here. So I think it's crucial to this story to understand how intellectual property is protected. Firstly, what is copyright and then also what is the public domain. 

Darcy: [00:01:25] So when an artist creates a work, say, Mickey Mouse, they have rights over that piece. It's your property and people shouldn't be able to rip you off. But policy makers recognise there is a public benefit in creative works being available to the public. Our cultural history is built on generations of people taking the work of those before them and building on it. Think modern adaptations of Shakespeare or the Grimm fairy tales. Romeo is. So policymakers balance the rights of the creator of new characters with the rights of the public to build on these works by creating a time limit for intellectual property protection. And after that time lapses, the works enter the public domain. [00:02:06][40.9]

Sascha: [00:02:07] The public domain. So tell me how that works. [00:02:10][2.9]

Darcy: [00:02:11] Public domain consists of all the creative work to which no exclusive intellectual property rights apply. I mentioned Grimm's Fairy Tales earlier, so let's stick with that. Snow White was first published by the Brothers Grimm in 1812. Those characters know what the Seven Dwarves, which we all know about, and the evil which they've since entered the public domain. So anyone can now use these characters in their works. I hope. [00:02:35][24.5]

Audio clip: [00:02:37] If all goes. [00:02:39][1.3]

Darcy: [00:02:39] So Disney is able to do a Snow White movie, but Universal is also able to do their own, which they've done with Snow White and the Huntsman, my queen. [00:02:47][7.6]

Audio clip: [00:02:48] Yet another kingdom falls. [00:02:50][1.3]

Sascha: [00:02:51] To your glory. Okay. Are there any other examples? [00:02:53][2.1]

Darcy: [00:02:54] Take Pinocchio, which was first published by Carlo Collodi in 1883. Pinocchio has now entered the public domain and is free for anyone to use in their own work. [00:03:03][9.2]

Sascha: [00:03:03] Yeah, he turned up in Shrek, remember? [00:03:04][1.3]

Audio clip: [00:03:06] Now you can't lie. So tell me, Puppet, where is Shrek? Oh. [00:03:11][5.7]

Darcy: [00:03:12] He did. So this year we've got both Disney and Netflix also releasing separate Pinocchio films. [00:03:17][5.4]

Audio clip: [00:03:18] I want to tell you a story. [00:03:19][0.9]

Sascha: [00:03:19] The Netflix one is directed by Del Toro and it looks incredible. Okay, so that's the basis for today's story. Creators have protection on their work. No one else can use it. But that protection doesn't last forever. And it's important to note that different countries have different lengths of copyright protection. So we get into this situation where some characters a public domain in some places and still protected in others. But let's zoom in on America, because that is where Disney is most intensely focussed on protecting Mickey at the start of the 20th century copyright lawsuit for 56 years. But that has changed over the past half century. [00:04:00][40.4]

Darcy: [00:04:00] America's 1909 Copyright Act that gave an author copyright for 28 years and an option to renew for another 28 years, giving them a total of 56 years. And based on that law, the world's most famous mouse. Mickey, it should have moved into the public domain in 1984, but Disney worked hard. They're such a powerful company, and they lobbied politicians to change this 1909 law. In 1976, with eight years left on Mickey's Copyright, Congress passed a new law which extended the length of copyright from 56 years to 75, and that set the new expiration for Mickey to 23. And it wasn't just Mickey Pluto. It was set to expire in 2005, Goofy in 2007 and Donald Duck in 2009. So you can see where this is going, though. Sascha Disney, they fired up the lobbying machine once again when these expiries were coming to an end. And in 1998, Congress passed another law which pushed Mickey's date until 2023, meaning he will enter the public domain on the 1st of January 2024. [00:05:07][66.5]

Audio clip: [00:05:07] Yes. Well, kept the cake, huh? Oh, yes, you do. [00:05:11][3.1]

Sascha: [00:05:13] And Darcy in my inter. I said how much money Mickey has made for Disney. It's understandable that they were lobbying so hard. [00:05:21][7.6]

Darcy: [00:05:21] It's completely understandable. I mean, ask any child around the world and they probably know who Mickey Mouse is. But in terms of actual money, brand experts in 2008 estimated that Mickey's value to the Walt Disney Corporation was over $3 billion, and estimates are that the world's most famous mouse, its brought in over 80 billion USD in revenue across everything, as you mentioned, movies, games, theme parks, cruises and merch. Mickey is everywhere. [00:05:46][25.1]

Audio clip: [00:05:47] Really? You mean it? [00:05:48][1.4]

Sascha: [00:05:49] I do want to raise, though, Darcy, that there's a certain irony in that Walt Disney has been a major beneficiary of works that have fallen into the public domain. [00:05:59][10.4]

Audio clip: [00:06:00] Dozens of Disney characters were taken directly from the public domain. Even the breakthrough Mickey cartoon Steamboat Willie is based on a Buster Keaton movie from 1928. [00:06:09][9.3]

Sascha: [00:06:10] And Mickey Mouse is just one part of this story, right? As you're speaking, my mind is running through all the other famous fictional characters at the heart of these multimillion dollar franchises. [00:06:22][11.7]

Darcy: [00:06:25] Exactly right. Sascha Mickey is one of the oldest and one of the most famous. But we're the mouse goes. Other major characters will follow. Time Warner has Bugs Bunny and the DC Comics universe, including Batman and Superman. Viacom has the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. One of my favourites. [00:06:41][15.9]

Audio clip: [00:06:42] Pizza Dude's got 30 seconds. [00:06:43][1.7]

Darcy: [00:06:44] Comcast, NBC Universal has Minions. Disney also has Star Wars and the Marvel Universe, including The Avengers. So as long as Mickey remains under copyright protection, all of these characters made after him are also protected. So there are plenty of big media companies with a vested interest in seeing the mouse being protected. [00:07:02][18.5]

Sascha: [00:07:04] Because they aren't just recognisable characters. These are major assets for these companies. [00:07:08][4.4]

Darcy: [00:07:09] They're major assets. And Sascha, I know you love guessing game. So Disney has three of the top five highest grossing intellectual properties in history. Can you guess a couple of them or three for bonus points? [00:07:21][11.8]

Sascha: [00:07:21] All right. Well, I've read Bob Iger's book. And so I know I think Star Wars would definitely be in that mix as one. I'm going to say Mickey Mouse, because we're talking about him today. And that was some hefty figures that I listed that beginning to. Oh, boy. The last one. I'm not sure I would go with maybe the Avengers franchise. [00:07:39][17.7]

Audio clip: [00:07:40] My name is Tony Stark, and I'm not afraid to. [00:07:41][1.7]

Darcy: [00:07:42] You could guess, but it's actually Winnie the Pooh. So to give you some numbers, the five highest grossing IPRs of all time. Star Wars at fifth and that's brought in $69 billion since 1977, equal fourth and third. And Mickey Mouse and Winnie the Pooh. They've both brought in $80 billion of revenue. And then the top two. Kind of surprised me. But then I also realised how important they are in pop culture these days. Hello Kitty and Pokemon maker Peter. [00:08:11][29.8]

Sascha: [00:08:12] Wow, that's really a surprise to me as well. [00:08:14][2.0]

Darcy: [00:08:15] Pokémon's brought in over $100 billion of revenue since just 1996. [00:08:18][3.1]

Sascha: [00:08:19] I will be the very best. Did you have Pokemon cards, Darcy? [00:08:23][4.2]

Darcy: [00:08:24] Of course I did. I played all the guys on my Gameboy. That was my childhood. [00:08:27][3.3]

Sascha: [00:08:28] I should have known Pokemon cards. Definitely a defining moment of my childhood. So just from the numbers that you've listed there of the top five, I mean, that's hundreds of billions of dollars. These are really valuable assets. And if they do enter the public domain, all kinds of weird and wonderful things can happen to them. So, Darcy, let's take a break and then explore that world in just a moment. On. Welcome back to The Dive. I'm your host, Sascha Kelly. I'm joined by my colleague Darcy Codell. And we are reviewing our childhood today. We're looking at all the fabulous characters that we grew up with and then finding out just how much money they've made these massive companies. Today we're focussed on the story that Disney is pursuing a way to keep Mickey Mouse under copyright and not falling into the public domain. But there are plenty of characters who've gone before him and are already out there. [00:09:33][64.2]

Darcy: [00:09:33] That's right. Plenty of the classic works of history are already in the public domain. Shakespeare, Beethoven, Charles Dickens, Gilbert and Sullivan. Oscar Wilde. The list goes on, but more modern characters have also made it into the public domain. Winnie the Pooh and his friends Piglet, Eeyore, Tigger, but also Tom and Jerry, Felix the Cat and some Popeye and Betty Boop works another more recent one. Sascha, did you watch A Star is Born with Lady Gaga and Bradley Cooper. [00:10:02][28.6]

Sascha: [00:10:05] Much as I did. I watch a Star is Born Darcy. I loved that movie. [00:10:10][5.3]

Darcy: [00:10:11] A real tearjerker. But that was actually a remake of the 1937 film with the same name. [00:10:16][5.3]

Audio clip: [00:10:17] I don't come to see a Star is Born, expecting to find a Cinderella story. [00:10:20][3.0]

Darcy: [00:10:21] That fell into the public domain as the owners didn't renew their copyright. [00:10:24][3.1]

Sascha: [00:10:24] Wow. I did know that there have been three versions of that film, but I didn't realise that it was on the basis that that copyright hadn't been renewed. But let's go back to the Winnie the Pooh, because I know you're sitting on a story here. When he entered the public domain, he did stray far from the hundred acre wood. Can you tell me a bit more about that? [00:10:43][18.5]

Darcy: [00:10:43] I can tell you, Winnie, certainly not how I remember him as a child. Since entering the public domain, he's had a couple of makeovers. [00:10:50][6.6]

Audio clip: [00:10:51] Winnie the Screwed. [00:10:51][0.6]

Darcy: [00:10:52] So one of them, actor Ryan Reynolds, made a playful nod to Winnie in a mint mobile ad. In the ad, Reynolds raised the children's book about, quote, Winnie the screwed a bear with a costly phone bill. [00:11:04][11.5]

Audio clip: [00:11:04] He slams the front of his head as hard as he can against the table as he realises how much he's being charged. [00:11:10][5.6]

Darcy: [00:11:11] But when he has received a far more sinister portrayal in the upcoming horror film titled Winnie the Pooh, Blood and Honey Pooh and his close friend Piglet go on a bloody rampage of killing after being abandoned by their old friend, Christopher Robin. Quite disturbing, Sascha. [00:11:28][17.0]

Sascha: [00:11:28] I don't think I'll be watching that one. Are there any other examples of rogue things happening in the public domain, famous characters kind of ending up in places we didn't expect? [00:11:38][9.8]

Darcy: [00:11:38] There are a few less extreme examples around F. Scott Fitzgerald's Great Gatsby came out of copyright in 2020, and in 2021, a book called Gatsby was released where Gatsby is reimagined as a fairy who spends his day and night in a cat costume. [00:11:53][15.0]

Sascha: [00:11:54] Oh, okay. [00:11:54][0.1]

Darcy: [00:11:55] Cool. Random. Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice is also in the public domain, so it was remixed into the 2016 film Pride and Prejudice and Zombies. [00:12:03][8.2]

Sascha: [00:12:04] All avowed. It's a classic. [00:12:05][1.3]

Darcy: [00:12:06] And the Brothers Grimm fairy tale. Hansel and Gretel was remixed into the 2013 film Hansel and Gretel Witch Hunters, My Sister. [00:12:13][7.0]

Audio clip: [00:12:15] We have a past. [00:12:15][0.7]

Sascha: [00:12:16] So I get the idea. Darcy Disney doesn't exactly want Mickey Mouse, the murderous mouse or fighting zombies or doing something along those lines that would certainly change the tone of their theme parks and Disney on Ice. So Disney might still have one trick up their sleeve, copyright versus trademark. Can you explain this to me? [00:12:38][21.4]

Darcy: [00:12:38] Disney won't give Mickey out without a fight. So once their copyright expires, unless they can lobby the government to extend the term again, there are a few other avenues they'll likely pursue to protect their rights to Mickey. One of those is trademark protection. So a trademark is a recognisable symbol or expression that is connected to a product or service from a particular company or individual. And unlike copyright, they can actually last forever. So basically, if there's something a business uses that is recognisable, like Mickey. [00:13:06][28.0]

Audio clip: [00:13:06] Hey, everybody, it's me, Mickey Mouse. [00:13:08][1.9]

Darcy: [00:13:09] The government protects that business from having other people copy it. The classic example is actually a logo. We can't just use another company's logo. Here at Equity Mates, there are laws to stop that. And Disney might argue that the famous mouse is a bear logo to stop others using it. [00:13:24][14.9]

Audio clip: [00:13:24] Wow. Oh, right. [00:13:25][1.2]

Darcy: [00:13:26] And this means others can use the character. But it must be done in a way that people don't mistake the work as being from Disney. I think it might be difficult for someone to whip out a mickey Mouse and not associate it with Disney either. [00:13:38][11.7]

Sascha: [00:13:38] This is a fascinating story. 2024 is not that far away. Bit scary, Darcy. Which means that we won't have to wait that long to find out what happens. Let's leave it there for today. But it definitely is a watch this space. If you enjoyed this episode, please tell a friend about it. Take a picture shared on social media. It is the best way for our podcast to grow. And if you're listening because you've been referred. Welcome. We have a growing back catalogue that's well worth checking out, so make sure you dive in there, pun intended. Remember, you can follow us on Instagram at the Dive Dot business or you can contact us by email. The dive at Equity Mates dot com and you can subscribe wherever you're listening right now so you never miss an episode. Thanks, Darcy. It was a lot of fun revisiting our childhood today. 

Darcy: [00:14:25] It was Sascha, but I'm looking forward to winnie the pooh horror film.

Sascha: [00:14:29] I'm not so much, but I'm glad someone out there is going to be a fan until next time.