Changing the lives of cancer patients – Dr Leslie Chong of Imugene | ASX CEO Connect Series

Bryce: [00:00:53] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast that covers our journey of investing, whether you're an absolute beginner or approaching Warren Buffett status. Our aim is to break down your barriers from beginning to dividend. My name is Bryce, and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you going? 

Alec: [00:01:09] I'm very good. Bryce very excited for this episode. We're speaking to a company leader of a company that I can't claim to understand, but a company that I'm hearing so much about from the Equity Mates community. So very excited to maybe not fully understand it by the end of this episode, but definitely understand it a lot better than I do right now.

Bryce: [00:01:29] That's it. It's our pleasure to welcome Dr. Leslie Chong, who is the CEO and managing director of Imugene. Leslie, welcome. 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:01:36] Thank you so much, Bryce and Alec for that lovely intro. 

Bryce: [00:01:39] So this is in partnership with the ASX Connect, which brings together listed companies and retail investors. Hosted virtually by the ASX every second month, it's a great opportunity for you to hear from CEOs and leaders of some of the most popular companies on the ASX from the comfort of your own home. So go to see a connect page on the website to find out more and register your interest. We have been lucky to partner with them and get six interviews over the coming year, and Leslie is one of the first to join us and we're really excited. So if you haven't heard of Emma-Jane, it's an ASX listed biotechnology company working to change the paradigm of cancer treatment trading under the ASX. Ticker Iyamu Leslie has over 20 years experience in leading clinical and department development in oncology, including at major pharmaceutical companies Genetech, GSK and Roche. And Apologies if I pronounce those wrong, Leslie, but we can't wait to unpack this also. So let's kick it off, Leslie. 

Alec: [00:02:41] I'm sure this won't be that won't be the last thing that one of us mispronounce in this episode. So you're just going to have to forgive us for that. But look, we love to start these interviews by having the company's CEO describe their company in their own words. So to kick us off today, what is Imugene? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:02:56] I think Imugene is, by definition, is quite simple. We're trying to change the paradigm of how cancer patients are treated with therapies that are out there. I mean, cancer, as we know it is just a heinous disease. it's a mutation gone awry in your body. And they used to either cut it out or they used to just put chemo on it and hopes that it would just kill it off. Or there's radiation, of course. And then we started attacking sort of the signalling pathway, and now we've moved on to immunotherapies and righting the wrong of your immunity is exactly where imaging is at. So we've got various different products that modulate your immune system to fight your own cancers in a way because we think that that is a possibly a nicer approach, a durable approach would with safety and toxicity being kept at bay because again, as your own immune system, doing the fight against your own kinds of cancer. 

Bryce: [00:04:03] So I'm sure there's going to be a lot of jargon over the next sort of 40 minutes. So let's start unpacking that. Imugene has three technology platforms oncolytic C.F. three, three oncolytic virus and b cell immunotherapy. For those of you like us who aren't scientists and have no idea what all of that means, can you take us through each of those platforms? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:04:26] Absolutely. So it's a virus and we all know what viruses can do, right? Right now, we're living in the age of COVID and the pandemic, and it keeps mutating and et cetera. We have an oncolytic virus, so onco just means cancer. So we have a virus that purely has a has an extreme hatred for solid tumours of malignant cells, and it only replicates in those cells. So we have an oncolytic virus pretty easy to understand, right? And infiltrates into solid tumours, expeditiously replicates and close that malignant cells and then imparts the virus. And then that whole process happens again and again. And with that backbone of an oncolytic virus that we call C at thirty three, we have also put placed in this gene, or a signature called C d 19, is clustered, differentiated and happens to be the 19th one. This gets shuttled up to the surface of these solid tumours. And then when you combine a C D 19 directed targeted therapy in that combination, you get like a three pronged punch to the virus. So that's what we call on car lyrics. And then we have the platform of the pure play, which is the vaccinique backbone in combination with other therapies. So those are two separate. Platforms and then we have the be so vexing, so you have two arms of your immune system, you have your B cells, you have your T cells and this one, what it does is it modulates your B cells to create your own antibodies, little drugs, your your body becomes this drug making system that goes after a certain target. So we have a vaccine and a virus so that in a simplest way, we've got two arms of your immunity just working against your cancer targets. 

Alec: [00:07:33] If we can get around this conversation in, I guess the patient experience. Can you give us an idea of the world before imaging and the world after imaging? How has your technology changed the treatment or how will it change the treatment of cancer for patients? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:07:50] Well, I think it's going to be one of those situations where hopefully patients don't have to come in every two weeks, sit in an infusion chair for a couple of hours, losing their hair. What have you? I currently with our Herbeck studies. Patients are coming in every three months to just get their vaccine as a booster shot, and then they hopefully go on to live a normal life so that patients experience could be pretty much, you know, controlling their cancers, being able to come in infrequently to their doctor visits and having that quality of life that we all deserve and living the life longer, better with cancer therapies in mind. So both our products has that because of our modulating the immune system. So you can envision that current patients have to come in, they get diagnosed, they go through a series of chemo and battles and taken therapies and infusion chairs and oral drugs to control their side effects, etc.. I'm hoping that life after imaging and if a few of our products becomes commercialised, I'd love to see our mothers, our cousins, our daughters, what have you, our families to be able to go into a cancer centre and frequently get their vaccine, get their borrowed dose, go on with their life? 

Bryce: [00:09:18] That would be amazing. My mother had leukaemia, and the process that she went through the treatment process was horrific. So to understand the impact that this could have on patients is, yeah, is truly amazing. So, Leslie, there are a number of other competitors in the space working to commercialise similar technology. So can you talk us or give us an idea of what that competitive landscape looks like? Who's out there and how do you really differentiate between some of the bigger players? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:09:49] I actually love competition because you can build on the shoulders of giants. So when they when we win, because that validates a certain target that we're going after. I'm glad that there's more choices for cancer patients because the goal of every biotech company in cancer is really not not to obliterate other competition is really to provide another therapy line for our patients. So this is what we're here for. So I love competition and the competition. Sure, the landscape is quite clutter, but that's good because we're all working towards a better cure, better quality of life and better responses and durability for our cancer patients. And what differentiates imaging is our safety profile. We think that we can offer up the same level of efficacy, the same level of response, even in combination, because right now, cancer therapy is all about inhibiting. Lots of different signalling had lots of different ways so that your. Really just stifling the growth of your tumours. And so we can offer up a lot of safety and toxicity. That combination becomes much easier, right? You want you want to be take take a lot. You want to be able to take a combination even two or three different kinds of cancer drugs or cancer therapies so that we can really just push back the growth of your tumours or just inhibit it altogether. And what's happening now is that the response rates are great when you combine therapies, but so is the side effects. And so we can offer up a very good safety profile toxicity profile, then that combination becomes easier. So I think that's the true differentiation of imaging and with our product we call own Khalid's. There's really nothing like it in the world that I can see in that we can infiltrate into solid tumours, shuttles up these little flags called CD19. And then you add a powerful therapy against the do nothing against the solid tumour and then you can obliterate that cancer and you have that durability and the memory effect and that goes on and on. There's really solid tumours tend to be quite mosaic in histology, and it profiles itself into several different mutations. So in order to target it, you have to combine a lot of different medication or hope that the other mutation doesn't make it grow any bigger. And with this, we just covered one signature so that a powerful therapy can come in there and just obliterate it. So that's the huge paradigm shift that we're we're hoping that we can impart into the cancer therapy repertoire.

Alec: [00:12:33] Obviously, we're an investing podcast here, and at some point we have to turn to the numbers when you when you look at these three platforms, when you look at your drug development pipeline and all the things that you're working on, how do you look at the financials here, the the market size, the revenue opportunity, what could that look like for imaging in the future? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:12:55] So I think what's on Khalid's, that's huge because we've really changed the landscape of how solid tumours can be changed to be completely looked at by a therapy. So it's sort of a mark and kill approach, which is quite unique. So the market size could be upsides could be quite huge. I would imagine. But I have to be honest, I generally don't think about that when I'm looking at cancer therapies because you just never know what the landscape is going to provide if we produce or develop our therapies in the right way. I always say, you know, follow the science and the value will come. And that's what I've seen in the past at previous companies that I've worked at. We've developed, you know, I have been a part of some great therapies that I've helped develop in a very niche market that have completely blown up because it is doing some significant things to the cancer tumour microenvironment. So for me, if I follow the science and realise the goals of the science, all these opportunities will come up, especially the marketed value there. So if I thought about what the market's going to be first? Then I would be developing a product towards that market that may or may not be there in the future. Right. So I don't want to I don't want to discount a product just because I don't think that there might be a marketed value at the end of the day because I really believe that if we can change how we treat cancer, then we've already created value.

Bryce: [00:14:36] So you worked in San Francisco at one of the most reputable biotechs in the world, Genentech. So we're interested to know how does Australia compare to the rest of the world when it comes to cancer research, the trial process and, you know, particularly around the regulatory environment as well?

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:14:54] Well, I think imaging is actually changing the definition or how Australia is viewed, especially in early development, because when I first arrived in Australia, I really think you guys have really great initial preclinical data across a lot of the transformative science that's being created here. But it was most mostly focussed on marketing products that have already been approved and not that early experimental novel therapies. And so for imaging, we have really only novel therapies that haven't really been explored before. And so it's sort of the new kid on the block or Australia. But I've I've sort of adopted the philosophy and the culture of Genentech. At Genentech, I was made to believe that every therapy has a chance of development if it has a scientific merit. And that's exactly sort of the culture and the strength of imaging because we really believe in our in our therapies and we just have to put it in the right space so that we can develop it. So I brought a lot of the San Francisco culture, which is, you know, totally just being creative and just going out there and believing and dream the dream. And so that's how I sort of wake up every day that we're a start-up company. We're going to start afresh. We're the new kids on the block and we're really going to make a difference here. And that's that's how I sort of treat the culture of imaging, but that's really borrowed from San Francisco and Genentech, really? 

Alec: [00:16:32] I love that. I love that. I think some of Australia's big, I guess, health companies that have been really successful have been device based. You know, the ResMed, the cochlear is of the world come to mind. So to to hear that we're, you know, we're at least making some headway in terms of these new and novel therapies and selling, as you know, as important as cancer. It's really exciting, although we don't all of Bryce and I don't quite understand everything that you're talking about, it's very exciting to hear and to hear your passion. But Leslie, we're going to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors and then we'd love to talk about people and culture and what the future could hold for imaging. So, Leslie, before the break, we touched on a little bit about imaging the three key platforms that you're working on and what the world could look like as you develop these, these drugs and these treatments. But we'd love to turn to imaging as a company and how you run it as the CEO and to start with, I guess, at a high level. Do you have a leadership philosophy that you that you bring to work as emergency?

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:17:39] I do. I think for me, it's all about trying to support and grow the genius that resides in each of the people that we've hired. They all come from really a place of experience and knowledge and creativity. And I just have to build that genius, right? Everybody has the genius that some people are great at something not so great at other things, but I need to weed out the things that they're not great at or provide that level of support so that they can grow because I want to ensure their success. I'm not here to demise on their career growth. I really want to be a part and support that career growth for them. Sometimes it may not be the best fit for imaging, but I have to try. I have to see what they're great at. I also believe in work life balance, but within the context of work ethic. So if you don't have work ethic to begin with, work life balance is just out the door for me and that conversation is so weird anyway. There's work life balance because where we all have this huge goal of providing meaningful therapies for cancer patients, which could be our friends, our families. So it's a greater cause than all of us. So that's sort of my growth philosophy within the company. The culture is one of, you know, we work hard, but we also play hard as well. We'd like to have a good time. This is a very stressful regulatory environment in which to work. I think the shareholders are quite interesting in the amount of stress that they put on the put on us that I try not to impart on my staff and and my family of employees. But it's all about we have a strong work ethic. We have a meaningful goal here to relieve patients of some sorts of cancer. And so for us, using that experience, growing their career, growing their business and then supporting them throughout,

Bryce: [00:19:47] yeah, that's that's awesome to hear, as we said at the top image, and it's been one of those stocks that has got a lot of attention and had a lot of conversation in the Equity Mates community. It had a great year in 2021, returning over 300 percent to shareholders. I think it was the third best on the ASX and it has entered the ASX 200 in December. How much do you think about the share price as CEO? Well, so

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:20:13] I've had to think about it a lot lately due to the world market. I mean, if not for the war, it's Covid, et cetera, et cetera. I do think about it for sure because some of our shareholders are meaningful investors who also want to make that change. So I do think about it, but all my day to day, I have to really focus on the science. You know, I truly believe, and if I build the science, they will come right. I follow the science, the value will come and that's where and that's where you want me to be focussed. If I'm only purely focussed on the share price and I do anything sort of tricky or whatever that's not long lasting, the long lasting value of imaging is really to build our foundational science. And that's exactly what I do. 

Bryce: [00:21:02] So as investors were often sort of told and we learn to invest in what we know, biotech is one of those industries that we are all really interested and excited about, but probably one that, particularly for me anyway, lies outside my circle of competence. There's a lot of complexity and within the organisations and new sort of clinical trials coming to market all the time for our audience and for those that are really interested in investing in the space. How would you suggest or what? What should we be looking at to sort of upskill our understanding of your businesses and to be able to identify yours versus some of the competitors and the nuances between H? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:21:46] That's a really good question. Then I don't think that it's only squarely in biotech Bryce say there's tech that we don't understand. I have no idea why Snapchat has things that disappear, you know, and people still invest in them through. And so I mean, I think the science has to be realised by patients, and that's the data that we're collecting. So I think is always incredibly difficult to really do a. Their assessment of purely the science, be it preclinical, be it clinical. So what I would suggest is to you, look at the people and the level of experience. Mm-Hmm. What's been their past history of success? Or maybe even if they haven't had success? Maybe they've learnt a great deal because I truly believe and you learn so much more through your failures than ever, then your success. I mean, I think sometimes being too successful makes you a little bit too ballsy and you don't look at all the things that you could have done wrong and how to correct them, those kind of things. I've certainly learnt a huge amount through my failures. It's about how you get up. It's not about how you fall down. And I would look at what the cash at hand do. They have enough money to realise on the value of what they're saying that they're going to achieve and the people. So I think money in the bank. Sure, you could try to understand the science to the best of your ability, but at the end of the day, you clearly will not know exactly how it's going to play out. And the patients, I mean, the way I evaluate assets when we acquire them is how well do they do and pre-clinical because hopefully even some aspects of that plays out in the clinic. You have a win. So that's exactly how I sort of invest in my assets, and I think people should invest in biotech, be it anything in that in that forum. 

Alec: [00:23:34] Yeah, I love that point about looking at the people and looking at their track record. And I think hearing you speak today, Leslie, about how you approach, I guess, the business of this drug discovery and being really focussed on the science is, I'm sure, exactly what biotech investors want to hear. We always like to end these conversations with a few questions around the future, and we would love to hear what the future of imaging looks like in the next 12 months. What does the future hold for imaging? Is there anything in the pipeline that you can talk to us about today?

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:24:06] So I think across all our pipeline, I mean, and when I look at my pipeline, my goodness, it's a little bit overwhelming in that we've got three platforms, five assets and then roughly anywhere between. We're trying to look at all solid tumours in a capacity where we could target. All of them will have something like anywhere between eight to 10 studies ongoing in the clinic by the end of 2020 to 10 studies ongoing with FDA and with with Germany, with South Korea. These all these different regions. It's a pretty exciting and prolific time for for imaging. So in the next 12 months, you could you could see all our products being in the clinic. Some of those products will have data across them, which is great, and we'll get that patient data that was signalled to whether or not we can move on to phase two and getting the proof of concept, getting the dose right to really modulate your tumour microenvironment, those kind of things, which is significant. So in the next 12 months is a pretty prolific time for imaging because I get to see across all our assets in cancer patients. 

Bryce: [00:25:25] What do you think is the greatest risk to your business right now? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:25:28] Well, I mean, apart from the war in the next 12 months, I don't see too too much of a risk because we're just trying to get that into the clinic. You know, short of the FDA saying in our toxicology exams or pre-clinical work wasn't done to the fullest and we'd have to go back. So maybe, you know, a little shift in the timelines, but that could be the risk. But we mitigate that every single day of our lives, every single day we get up and think, Oh gosh, OK, we need the FDA to come back with. This will mitigate it this way. So I think, you know, I would I would seriously think that the FDA regulatory environment is such that that wouldn't be the limiting factor. I don't really see too much of an obstacle because we sort of mitigate that by the hour on the hour. I mean, even as I'm speaking to you, I'm getting emails about this and that, and we just we just go, this is. It's a constant just decision making. And yeah, just navigating our products through the right channels. 

Alec: [00:26:35] Well, Leslie, we want to say a massive thank you for joining us today. We like to always end with the same question. We like to think as long term investors here at Equity Mates. So we like to close on a question about the long term. If you think about imaging in 10 years from now, what would success look like for you? 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:26:56] The one of our products or many of our products already in clinic, in the patients doing what it is supposed to do that is marketed, that we've moved imaging has moved on to something. That's even more revolutionary, may be genetic engine re-engineering or what have you or Chris Burns and all these other neat things. I would like to have seen imaging already either sold to a big pharma company or marketed a product, and then we've gone on to other bigger novel products. And because I love that early develop early development stage, because that's where the excitement, that's where you're really trying out the science to see if it works in cancer patients. So I'll leave the the marketing to someone else. But I would love to see imaging or myself or my team just getting in there and being reinvigorated by a new fangled science that that's not been seen before. 

Bryce: [00:27:59] Love that so much hope. Great way to end the conversation today, Leslie, and we thank you so much for your time, as I mentioned at the top. Imugene. is a company that has obviously found the hearts of a lot of members of our community, so I'm sure that they would have really enjoyed listening to to you today and hearing it directly from you. So thank you very much and all the best with what sounds like an incredibly busy 2020 too. 

Dr. Leslie Chong: [00:28:25] Thank you so much for having me. This was a pleasure. 

Bryce: [00:28:28] And if you have enjoyed today's interview, the ASX CEO Connect offers conversations like these and more. Head to the CEO Connect page on the ASX. The next webinar is Tuesday, 12th of April. Link will be in the show notes. If you can't attend the live event online, be sure to check out the Presentation Recordings playlist after each event on their website. You can rewatch anything that you missed, but Ren great to chat as always, and we'll pick it up next week. Sounds good.