Uncovered: Emyria – Bringing psychedelic-assisted therapies to Australia

Bryce: [00:00:14] Welcome to Equity Mates Investing, the podcast where we explore what's possible in the world of investing. My name is Bryce, and today we have an uncovered episode where we unpack a company that doesn't get as much analyst attention to chat through it all. As always, is my equity buddy, Ren. 

Alec: [00:00:30] How are you, Bryce? I'm good. I'm very excited for this episode, our first uncovered episode for 2024. And God, is it a fascinating company. The company that we're looking at today is Emyria. The ASX ticker is EMD. I'd never heard about this company before, until we started looking at it for this episode. It is on the cutting edge of psychedelic assisted therapies, bringing, you know, new forms of therapy that they were working on CBD. So from marijuana when it was first, rescheduled and allowed in Australia. And now they're looking at other therapies like MDMA therapy, psilocybin therapy. Fascinating. 

Bryce: [00:01:14] What I found interesting and a bit of a light bulb moment for me during this interview, and this is probably going to sound quite dumb, but whenever I've thought about these therapies, I've always thought of them as just, you take the psychedelic and kind of. You know, it just helps alleviate and whatnot. But I didn't kind of put the two and two together. You take it and then have an intense therapy session. Because I thought it was just like you microdose. And over time, you just kind of loosen up. Well, I know this sounds disingenuous, but. Oh, what a no, it's fair enough. And so the other part, the other half of it for me is now like it's the cutting edge of psychedelic, assisted therapy. But the therapies, the quality of the therapists and whatnot is such a big part of this. Well, like. 

Alec: [00:02:12] Yeah, well, just and I imagine even just the availability. 

Bryce: [00:02:15] Availability and yeah, it's like, so anyway, a bit of a light bulb moment for me.

Alec: [00:02:19] Well, luckily it's not, it's luckily it's not Bryce and I that will be taking you through this company. We're actually going to be joined by Michael Winlo, who's the managing director of Emyria. And, he's going to take us through both what's happening with the company itself. But then more broadly, what's happening with, you know, the research into these therapies and the, I guess, the legal and regulatory status of these therapies in Australia and, what's happening around the world as well. So a really fascinating, I guess, both company deep dive and industry deep dive. Now, before we get to Michael. Just a quick reminder that the Equity Mates community Survey is live. It's your chance to help shape the future of Equity Mates and win $500 doing it. We want to know what you like, what you don't like, what you want to hear more of, what you think we should stop. Yeah. If you enjoy these uncovered episodes, if you want to hear more of a different type of content, if you have a particular company you want us to look at from Covid, the community survey is your chance to have your voice heard. It really does help shape the direction of our content. It led to the change in our content schedule for 2024. So, the link is in the show notes. It would be a great help if you could spend the time to fill it out.

Bryce: [00:03:33] Nice. Well, this is also not a buy, hold or sell recommendation. And any information on this show is for entertainment and education purposes only. Any advice is general. Ren, with that said, let's bring in Michael and hear about Emyria. Well, Michael, welcome to Equity Mates.

Michael: [00:03:50] It's great to be here. Yeah. Good to see you guys. 

Bryce: [00:03:51] So the majority of our audience will know of the drugs that we're talking about today, but not in the context that we're discussing them. So can you introduce us to psychedelic assisted therapies?

Michael: [00:04:03] Absolutely. Let's not make any assumptions about your audience. 

Alec: [00:04:08] We're not sure if they are personally familiar with, you know, that we've heard about. 

Michael: [00:04:12] Yeah. They were ahead. Yeah, definitely. Yes. They're obviously provocative drugs. These are what we're talking about here, loosely referred to as the psychedelic medications, but they go by other names in the street as well as as they've been outlawed, drugs for many decades. So, we're referring to that to MDMA or otherwise known as ecstasy, although there are some really important differences between the medical grade, MDMA that we're, that we use in our therapy settings versus that which we you must obtain on the street, which is, often mislabelled, as, as MDMA, often cut with other drugs. So this short public service announcement there, it's got a compound here we talk about is psilocybin which is the active hallucinogenic compound in magic mushrooms, which is I guess the other street name here. And so loosely we talk about these as psychedelic drugs, psychedelic meaning kind of mind manifesting kind of a was a word coined, in the 60s, for these kinds of drugs that have very profound changes of consciousness and awareness. They can create hallucinations, which are distortions of reality. That's, you know, typically with drugs like psilocybin, MDMA. However, even though it does get classed as a psychedelic, it's not a traditional psychedelic. And then it doesn't create distortions of reality or changes of perception. One remains pretty lucid on MDMA, but you get these very, very strong feelings of compassion, connectedness to others. There's euphoria associated with MDMA as well, decreased defensiveness in these qualities of these drugs. They're very unique. They're very potent. And, they're starting to capture the attention of the medical community because they're being used in these therapeutic contexts where we leverage these profound changes of mental state to support psychotherapy with patients with severe mental health illness. And, and that's where these drugs are starting to, as I guess, see a comeback. And I'm starting to, you know, we're starting to see some really profound and positive shifts. 

Alec: [00:06:11] We're really looking forward to getting into some of that research, and where, you know, psychedelic assisted therapies, being shown to, to have an effect. Before we do, we'd love to take a step back and just ask a little bit about your story, I guess. And the story of Emyria. How did you come to? Work in this area. And, what was Emyria's founding story? 

Michael: [00:06:33] So I was trained as a medical doctor and worked for a few years as a clinician. I come from a medical family where my father's a doctor, has been a GP out of the country, and so it's a pretty wild medicine out here in the West, in the rural West Australia. And so I was always really drawn to healthcare. That was always going to be my focus of my career. But I guess early on, I started to see opportunities for the impact that entrepreneurship and innovation could have in healthcare. So it wasn't about directly treating patients, but about, you know, coming up with innovations or new ways of doing things. And so, that took me on a journey through some Start-Ups. Eventually I completed my MBA, in the US, and I stayed in America. I joined a healthcare company, on the tech side of things, a company called Palantir, which is a big data company with a very, very small healthcare team. In fact, we were the founding five team when I joined, that's now a big part of their business. But that really gave me a deep appreciation for the impact that clinical data can have in helping, you know, complex business challenges, particularly in health care across drug development, and care delivery. Eventually, I returned back to Australia into the CEO role of a clinical trial organisation, a not for profit here in Perth that does a lot of phase one trials in cancer and, and in healthy volunteer studies as well. And it was there that I started to put all the intersect, my, my career journey together in a, in a more neat fashion, where suddenly the data side of things made real sense. We started to digitise what we're doing on the trial side. Obviously, in trial land, your product is clinical data in healthcare service delivery. You know, what you're striving for is good clinical outcomes, but you're not, you're paying a huge amount of attention to getting good data. It's about service delivery. And, you know, the Emyria journey was really trying to bridge those two worlds to say, well, in healthcare we do a great job caring for patients, but we don't do a great job learning about the experience of every patient. In clinical trials, we do a great job collecting data for patients, but we're not really making it a goal to get these patients better. We're trying to answer a question, perform some research and so Emyria's mission was really to sit in between those worlds where we have clinical services, where we're actually inviting every patient to be part of an ongoing clinical study, for want of a better word, where we're collecting rich data on these patients, we're paying attention to many different things, and we're getting educated and we're getting knowledge about what's working, what's not working. And this is the perfect forum for evaluating promising new treatments that appear to have a big role to play, but for which the evidence is lacking. And so, we saw an opportunity to really, you know, set up a service for recently rescheduled medications. And our first forum was for the medicinal cannabis products that came out. And of course, more recently we've been preparing for this rescheduling of the psychedelic assisted medications as well. For, for the same question, for same reason. 

Bryce: [00:09:32] And so what was the response from the likes of friends and family, even the ASX potential investors, when you started going out to pitch the idea of working on, you know, building a company that is, sort of centred around psychedelic assisted therapies. 

Michael: [00:09:46] Yeah. Well, caution from both groups. And it raised eyebrows. I mean, the person I'm most I guess one of the opinion of is my father being this, mainstream established, you know, clinician, but he'd been in the system long enough and seen enough to have a just a broad sort of, you know, scepticism about, you know, traditional medicine. Anyway, obviously, you know, the particular mental health side. We haven't seen a huge amount of progress. So, you know, anything that looked potentially promising seemed right to him. And of course, we were trying to learn what was working, what wasn't. And that was always our bias. And so, I think we, you know, we had had credibility from that, you know, approach. So he was supportive. And so I think with him, his encouragement, didn't really matter what any of us were saying. On the other side, the ASX were, I guess also suitably cautious. They wanted to see real evidence of a real business. You know, this couldn't just be an idea on paper. So that's, you know, we had to go ahead and set up clinics and start treating patients and hiring doctors and show that we were a real service, first. So we did that, and that got us through the door. And then we were able to list, right before Covid, which made things interesting. But, we've persevered and I'm doing great work at the moment. 

Alec: [00:10:55] So Emyria was founded in late 2018, listed, as you said, just before Covid in 2020. And what now? We're in 2024. So it's been 5 or 6 years. And in that time there's been some pretty incredible research on psychedelic assisted therapies. So can you take us through what some of the last few years has brought us in terms of studies and new research and, and I guess where we are now in terms of understanding this whole new category of medicine. 

Michael: [00:11:26] Look, we're on the precipice of a really revolutionary new shift, I believe. And Australia in many ways is leading the world with the recent very key decision to reschedule psilocybin and MDMA to allow these compounds to be prescribed medications by suitably qualified psychiatrists for treatment resistant depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, respectively. Major regulators re-evaluate their position on these drugs. These were previously illegal, outlawed, you know, medications, you would go to jail if you touched them or sold them in, in, in any way. And now, you know, what a shift that these are now being recognised as having therapeutic potential and being rescheduled and and so regulators will do this from time to time and different drugs, if they can be convinced that there is a therapeutic benefit for these drugs. And so we actually have drugs like cocaine in schedule light and ketamine and ibogaine, sitting as controlled medications where as long as, you know, they're in the hands of the appropriately trained and qualified, you know, specialists and given to patients, you know, with the right, screening in place, there is a role for these drugs. And so, regulators are making these shifts on the back of great evidence that's been presented around the world and probably the two most well studied compounds, of course, MDMA for PTSD, which is now going through two phase three trials. A phase three trial is the gold standard, you know, clinical trial. It's a multi-site. It's lots of patients. It's placebo controlled, as much as you can with these drugs. And, and what we saw repeated on two separate studies was this profound, you know, improvement in symptoms for patients with PTSD, more than two thirds of patients effectively going into a remission, from their condition and from the earlier phase two studies, we see that the durability appears to last at least for 12 months. That's a very, very compelling outcome, particularly in the background of a rising, you know, problem where the current treatments, you know, have an efficacy rate of, you know, 50% or so for most patients. So huge amount of interest and excitement to see whether we can translate those clinical results into real practice. Psilocybin is probably, you know, it's just a step behind. It's done some really great phase two trials going into phase three. And, for a single dose of supportive psychotherapy, you know, we're seeing half, a 50% improvement in depression scores, for patients with severe treatment resistant depression, which is great. And that appears to last out to 12 weeks after just a single dose. So some important shifts are happening, in these patients, facilitated by the medication and the support of the psychotherapy. And so, now there's a, you know, a huge amount of confidence that those results can continue to be reviewed. Then these drugs will naturally make their way through to approvals. I feel that it's inevitable. And then they'll become part of the toolkit of most clinicians. And then the big question will be, how do we deliver these drugs into our health system? And then what comes next? And that's the question that we're really focussed on. 

Alec: [00:14:24] When we were researching for this interview. It's just a whole world that I wasn't really aware of. Let's, let's drill down on PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, because I think that really illustrates where some of these therapies are really emerging. And speaking personally, I had no idea about one, the scale of the challenge with PTSD and two, I guess the challenge with finding effective treatment. So I think, you know, for people who are listening to this interview, sceptically about the use cases for these new therapies, I think it's a good illustration of something. So let's start with just the scale of the challenge of PTSD. How widespread is it? How common is PTSD. 

Michael: [00:15:08] I guess might be helpful. Establish a simple definition. You know, PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, this chronic, debilitating, you know, mental health challenge where you've got symptoms of restlessness, hypersensitivity, agitation. It's an anxiety type condition that can arise either after exposure to a single traumatic event or perhaps chronic exposure to, you know, certain circumstances of, of neglect or chronic abuse. And so, one, one just has this heightened fear response that for most of us, we can manage. But for patients with PTSD, they're very activated. They're kind of on edge all the time. And it actually affects up to 6% of the adult population. And that number means that we have nearly a million individuals with PTSD in Australia. Or your 30 million plus, in the, in the US, for example. So it actually affects a huge number of people, obviously, a much higher incidence in first responders and, you know, policemen, ambulance officers, firemen, people who go forward when the rest of us go back, you know, and, and obviously servicemen as well. And, it has a reasonably high treatment resistance. There's no single drug that's approved for PTSD. So you have to manage the symptoms. You give people antidepressants, you put them through, you know, cognitive behavioural therapy. And so far. Some numbers, about 50% of patients don't typically get a great response from their standard therapy. And so, you know, you're now talking about, you know, half a million people with the condition that, you know, that's affecting their lives in a negative way, not just for the individual, but these people could often not hold a job where they become a physician to their family and friends as well. So, the psychosocial burden is actually quite, quite significant. 

Alec: [00:16:52] Yeah. That challenge of finding effective treatments and, and only all of those treatments together are only being effective for 50% of the patients is pretty, you know, astonishing. Certainly not something I was aware of. So then I guess in comes these psychedelic assisted therapies. And we've seen a number of clinical trials. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of them coming out of the US. Let's focus on the stage three trials. What have we learnt from those trials? And most importantly I guess, how have the results from those trials compared to the common treatments that are available today? 

Michael: [00:17:32] Yeah. So, we've learned a couple of things. I guess we haven't yet had a chance to describe how how it is that these treatments are typically taken administered. That's that's kind of really important here as well in that the emphasis we're excited about the drugs because they are these, you know, the because of their history, because of what they do. But the qualities that make these drugs, you know, attractive party drugs actually make them really powerful adjuncts for psychotherapy. So MDMA is case. It has this really unique feature of boosted dramatically increasing release of serotonin, which is connected to feelings of trust and and connectedness with it with each other. It releases dopamine, which is, a compound neurotransmitter related to euphoria and feeling good. And then noradrenaline, which is that activation compound involved in fight or flight. That's where you got the you got the energy with MDMA. The these qualities in the context of, psychotherapy, allow a patient to work through, you know, really challenging material in a much more calm state of mind, with less of the fear response, with less defence in this that can be a bit more compassionate to themselves, to the circumstances. And it allows the psychotherapy to be really effective effectively, sticking these patients in the therapy context. And so it's really important that this is intensive psychotherapy, up to 6 to 8 hours in a single dosing session where the medication is really opening up, the content and helping the individual work through their issues. So for MDMA, what's been how this has worked is people have a preparation session with a therapist and they, you know, they they set an intention. They have these long dosing sessions where they're in the presence of two therapists for 6 to 8 hours. They have some follow up integration sessions, we call it with the therapist where they work through, you know, the content of those intense dosing sessions. And the studies have shown that three sessions, three dosing sessions with those intervening preparations and integrations can lead to this incredible outcome where two thirds of patients have a full remission and 80% will have a clinically significant improvement in their symptoms. And so we've learned a couple of things. We've learned that, you know, that you can't, that psychotherapy is very important, that drugs are there to facilitate psychotherapy, that it's important to, I guess, give psychotherapy its prominence in this therapeutic modality. So we're learning that safety is, is exceptional. Certainly if you screen patients carefully, there are some exclusions for MDMA. Cardiovascular issues need to be looked at. And ideally we're not taking people with psychosis as well. So there are some exclusions. But generally the patients are very, very well tolerated. Very few adverse events, for those who are carefully screened and, and remarkable progress through therapy, psilocybin is a little bit different in that it's usually a single dose. You have an intensive hallucinogenic experience at the doses which appear therapeutic. You lose sense of self, and, and time and place. And so the content is a lot more abstract. And so, you know, the therapist is really there to keep you safe in those dosing sessions and then work through, you know, any sort of key insights that you may have in the following, days, through, through the integration work, as well. So we're learning this is a really different way of doing therapy is very effective and very safe. And so now the big questions are were, how can we deliver this, you know, in a real world setting and how can we make it affordable and scalable? Because, you know, a key thing that we think about, it's one thing to do in a single session. You know, it's one thing to build the prototype. It's another thing to build a factory that can make your innovation scale. And so it's one thing to do one session, but how do we do a thousand sessions? How we do 10,000. That's something that we think we pay a lot of attention to. 

Bryce: [00:21:15] What, if any, have been some of the side effects from those sessions and like what's the intensity and or the cadence in which you could do 2 or 3, 6 to 8 hour sessions on the MDMA. 

Michael: [00:21:28] Yeah. So we way for a single patient. Okay. That's if you're talking about how frequently we, you have somebody, you know, go through a dosing session. The phase three trial is typically spaced about about a month apart. Okay. But there's some evidence that anywhere between 2 to 4 weeks, is probably adequate. And it may be different for different people. You need to give individuals time for the window of opportunity to open up. There's a there are changes that take place in the brain. There's increased plasticity, which, appears to be in effect for at least seven days after both MDMA and, and psilocybin. And so you've got some real opportunity to try and learn new behaviours and develop new habits. And put to action, some of the, you know, the insights that you might have, might have learned or had through the dosing session. So it's important to space them out. You wouldn't whack them all together a day, but, you know, one after the other. Psilocybin sessions can be challenging for people. It's not necessarily going to be a happy time. And so we are with patients aren't in a rush to go back into that headspace. And so again, most of the studies have just evaluated a single dose. But there may be some models where people are having two doses, again, probably spaced out about a month. But this isn't a drug that you take every day. This isn't a drug that you have, you know, multiple days per week. These are intense sessions that we spaced apart, you know, give the mind a chance to breathe, people to work with the content that they've surfaced. The ultimate outcome here is for people to adopt a new way of thinking about themselves and the world, and hopefully adopt more positive and worthwhile behaviours.

Bryce: [00:22:59] Yeah. Nice. So let's turn to Emyria's future. And, with the Australian government rescheduling psychedelic assisted therapies as controlled medicines, this is obviously opened the door for companies like Emyria. So how have you responded? How are you, I guess, taking this opportunity.

Michael: [00:23:17] Yeah. So, we've been preparing for this for a while. We've had experience with rescheduled drugs with the cannabinoids. We, you know, a majority of our patients are actually have always been mental health patients. We have done a couple of things we've brought in our clinical service footprint. So we now have a psychological trauma care focussed clinical service with specialist psychiatrist support of counsellors, therapists, social workers, occupational health therapists, as well, mental health nurses. We have a really, really broad team, and integrating that with our aerial clinic service, which have been GP led. We now have these mental health GP's as well. So we really have a full spectrum of care. We think that's really important for providing these therapies. We've got the full wraparound kind of services, to support these patients before, during and after, which is really important. So we're very much on the frontline delivering these therapies. We have all of the regulatory approvals in place. We've also secured, the drug supply, which is was quite challenging. You know, again, if you don't get your cornerman for these medications, you have to go to special qualified, you know, pharmaceutical grade the manufacturers of these treatments. But we have all of that in place as well as a trained team. We've been running clinical trials for some months now, so we have a lot of hands-on experience in how to move these patients through, how to select them. And, and obviously what it's like to provide the care for them. So we think about two really important things. This is drug assisted therapy. So the future is going to be you know, advancements in the drug development side MDMA and psilocybin won't be the last psychedelic drugs. We know that that have a role to play here. There'll be improvements. We'll be looking at things. Can we shorten the sessions? Can we improve the safety profile and broaden the patient population who are eligible for these treatments. So we're really interested in drug innovation. We have a program, in that field, with the University of Western Australia here. We're looking at making changes to MDMA to see whether we can also create some of these, different, different applications. And we're also interested in the therapy side. So we know that the hands on are hard. This is a very expensive, intensive type of, you know, clinical intervention. Interventional psychiatry. People in psychiatry are accustomed to this. You know, therapists and psychiatrists don't typically cohabitate, in the same clinic. It's actually unusual. And so how do we create a space where, you know, these individuals can work together and that we can support facilitation of this. And so I think there's going to be a lot of innovation in the care delivery side as well. And we think about making adjustments to the way we deliver this so that it can scale can be more cost effective. And so, you know, people, you know, challenge us for being involved in both of these worlds. But the push back is, well, this is the future. It is drug assisted therapy. And we see opportunities to innovate along both dimensions. 

Alec: [00:26:10] It's so fascinating and there's so many follow ups. I want to ask around the health side of it and the drug development side of it, but I'm mindful of the time and I am mindful that we are an investing podcast here. So let's let's move to the financial side of it. When it's such an early stage of the market just being rescheduled and just sort of developing. I imagine it can be quite hard to forecast and forecast accurately about what's to come. So I think, you know, as a as a company leader now, how do you think about the economics of the market, but probably more importantly, the economics of your business? What are the financial metrics you're watching the most closely, and how are you sort of assessing health and success financially at this stage? [00:26:55][44.9]

Michael: [00:26:57] Yeah. Look, I think at the foundation there's a fairly simple business. We've got to be a really excellent clinical service organisation. We already, you know, generate, you know, revenues, you know, around $1 million a year from the clinical services. That's before we've actually implemented anything new, like the MDMA assisted therapy. And so we think about, well, how do we do this really efficiently? How do we make the best use of our staff and team and clinicians? And how do we, I guess, implement a service that can cover its costs? The truth is that this intervention needs to work well for the clinicians. They need to not lose money. They can't go backwards. As much as we'd love them just to donate their time, you know, to bring the cost down. That's not going to happen at scale. So we need to find a way that they can get paid well to do this treatment. But we believe in the efficacy so much that if we can replay the results, the cost effectiveness is there. And now we have the winning combination, something that's better for patients, that works for clinicians, that actually delivers really important health that economics benefits to, to the er to the, to society. So, we're focussed on setting up our clinics in a way that allows us to do, you know, get the throughput to a point where we can actually do this profitably and, and, and safely deliver great impact, have a repeatable model that we can pick up and take elsewhere, either through our own linear growth or we can work with partners, to, to get this going, if we can pay attention to what's happening, with patients, track those outcomes, we're going to be in a really strong position to negotiate with payers and get adequate coverage for, for this treatment as well, because I'll, I'll throw some other numbers at you. The average hospital admission in here is $2,200 a night, and the average day is about 19 days. So very quickly, you're certainly much more expensive than a psychedelic assisted therapy treatment. And these patients that, you know, they don't necessarily get better after 19 days in hospital, they're just burnt out or they just live contain the crisis. They go back to the community until they are readmitted. So, the current health system, dynamic is, you know, particular for mental health. You know, is, is is is imperfect. And so there is a I don't think it'll take much for us to demonstrate, you know, the, the cost effectiveness of these treatments. And even though it's a new way of sort of paying for care, it's a new way of thinking about mental health sort of interventions. I think the payers will be compelled and, and will engage. And then that obviously certainly unlocks massive economic potential for those services who are ready and prepared to, to scale and grow into that demand. 

Alec: [00:29:26] Yeah. Health care is always an interesting market because the player that is paying for the service often isn't the player that is receiving the service. And so you've got a few different people that you've got to convince. How have the conversations with health insurance companies gone? Have they been started or is it too early in the process to. 

Michael: [00:29:45] Yeah, yeah, they absolutely have started. In fact, health care is more broken than that. Usually market dynamics, you know, the buyer and the seller. But in the healthy you got three people. The decision maker doesn't pay. That's the doctor. The payer doesn't benefit. That's the health payer. And the patient who benefits doesn't pay it all the time. And so and so you the market dynamics do not work yet. So you need to engage all three groups. So you clearly need to be, as I mentioned, better for patients. You need to have really good data to engage the clinicians and give them a place they can come in practices. There is no shortage of therapists and psychiatrist who want to get involved. They are frustrated with outcomes. They they they they're they're this it's a really stressful job being in psychiatry. So it's not uncommon for a psychiatrist really to get to about 500 patients and then close their books. And then not a lot, you know, and then they're busy enough with those 500. And so we need many more than that. We've only got 4500 private psychiatrists in Australia. But there's you know, there's hundreds of thousands of patients who need Medicare. So, we create the conditions to allow those specialists and therapists to come in, come and work. And then the payer conversations have started. They are clearly looking on the outside. So it's up to organisations like us to demonstrate that we can get close to the efficacy we've seen in those phase three trials, but they are driven by economics at the end of the day, and with a $50,000 hospital admission or $30,000 treatment, or for that patient wherever. A thing that's been tried and we've thrown the kitchen sink at them and they're still not getting better. Then you must have a moral obligation to try the next thing. And so I think we're going to see engagement from the players. We will. And I think that's inevitable. And it's just a matter of demonstrating that we as an organisation have a consistent, repeatable, you know, care model that they can get behind 

Bryce: [00:31:30] Well, Michael, if you think about Emyria in ten years time, what does success look like? 

Michael: [00:31:37] Yeah I love that thought experiment because ten years is quite a way into the future look and change and certainly didn't see the rescheduling of psychedelics coming. But look I would love if we were, you know, we had a network of clinical services around Australia, potentially around the world, sort of networked, partnered, cooperating to advance mental health treatment and be an engine for innovation, a place where the very best new possible treatments are being evaluated alongside the gold standard of care. We have parables like this compared with cancer, where the latest, best promising treatment is being put up against the current gold standard. I can see that happening in mental health as well, and I think that's going to be new ways of working with patients. We also have new drug treatments, and we want to be that centre of excellence, that engine of innovation, that kind of sets the, you know, precedent for how things could look, for, for others. 

Alec: [00:32:29] Love it Micahel, well the scale of the challenge is big mental health is, you know, it's front of mind for people. But it's been, you know, decades of understudied and under-invested. And, we're excited to, I guess, see what comes next on the journey and what new drugs come down the line. So, all the best with it. Good luck. And, we'll be watching from afar. 

Michael: [00:32:50] I appreciate your time today. Thanks for your questions. 

Bryce: [00:32:52] Thanks, Michael.