Queen’s Road Capital’s Warren Gilman shares his 2 Golden Rules for Investing

Candice: [00:00:11] Hello and welcome to talk money to me. This is your Need to know financial podcast. I'm Candice Bourke. Felicity: [00:00:16] And I'm Felicity Thomas. Now, thank you for joining us today as we have a very special guest, the chairman and CEO of Queens Road Capital, a debt a finance investment company. Within the resource sector listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange, the ticker being QR c dot TSX with closing last night at actually $0.68. Candice: [00:00:39] So to set the scene for this episode today. We're going to just quickly give you a bit of background on Queen's Road Capital or QRC for short. So I first came across this company a few years ago when I met Warren, when actually he recently did join Queen's Road Capital back in February 2020. And then they changed the name and started re trading. So tough time to do it right in the beginning of the COVID two year period that we that we went through, obviously, and the share price back then was around $0.47. It has been trading, you know, like Vlocity said, around 68, $0.70 of late, but been as high as $0.90 in last six months. So Queen's Road Capital, as we're going to hear from Warren, it's essentially a publicly traded resource company that lends debt to interesting resource companies. The current market cap is currently 302 million CAD. And what's interesting about the investment philosophy and the process that Warren at Queen's our capital has built is that it's he's very much as well he agnostic to the certain commodity. He purely looks at it from an investment perspective. What is it a compelling, you know, commodity that has a high IRR? And also he's very conservative. You know, it doesn't want to lose money. It wants to pay regular dividend. And I guess the final point that really struck me when I first started looking at you I see, is that the top shareholders are probably Australia's most successful entrepreneurs and household names. So you've got Jack Cowin, Andrew Forrest and Brett Blondy. Felicity: [00:02:13] Undoubtably three of the most famous Australian investors and businessmen are invested in this. Now remember our chat today is not considered personal advice, even though we're registered advisors. Sean Partners. Please note that this podcast and the content discussed does not constitute financial advice, nor is it a financial product. Now, before we bring in Warren, let's set the scene on his experience and expertise in the markets and resource sector. So Warren Gilman is a mining engineer with more than three years experience as a dealmaker in the metals and mining sector. Now he was actually a founder of the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce, CIBC, the global mining team in Toronto in 1988. He subsequently led the team's efforts out of Australia and Hong Kong. Now, during his time with CIBC, Mr. Gilman was actually responsible for some of the largest equity capital markets finance in the Canadian mining history. He also served as an advisor to some of the largest mining companies in the world, including BHP, Rio Tinto, Anglo American, Noranda, Faulconbridge, Meridian Gold and China Minmetals. Candice: [00:03:22] I mean, wow. Right. So impressive. All right. So with that, we'd like to welcome Warren Gilman. Warren Gilman: [00:03:28] Felicity, my great pleasure. Thank you for having me. Felicity: [00:03:31] Before we delve a little bit deeper into Queen's Road Capital, we wanted to kind of start off our conversation by turning back the clocks. Can you give us a bit of background on the road that actually led you Queen's Road Capital? Warren Gilman: [00:03:44] Well, firstly, that's a that's a life journey. My father was an exploration geologist. I became a mining engineer. So that probably set the path. Then I spent 26 years as a mining investment banker working in different places around the world, but all with the same firm. Then I spent ten years as a mining investor investing the money of Mr. Li Ka-Shing, who is one of the world's richest men based out of Hong Kong. And after that long journey, I took all that experience and decided to apply it to my own company, TSX listed Queen's Road Capital. So they have at risk of being a little long winded in the response. That's how we got here. Felicity: [00:04:37] That's how we got here. And I remember you did have a conversation when you came into our office about your roles when it came to investing. Can you elaborate a little bit further on on those roles and and how it kind of sets you up for Queen's Road capital investment? Warren Gilman: [00:04:53] Now, that's a that's a great question because those rules were honed through my. Perience investing for Mr. Li from the period 2009 to 2019. So that ten year period post the financial crash of 2008 2009. So I was working with Mr. Lee and he was a little reticent about investing in the resource sector. He likes to get involved in industries where he can have an outsize influence and use his capital to dominate the industry. But I convinced him that the main driver behind the resource sector was then and now and still is China. And there is no single individual on planet Earth that knows and understands China from an investment perspective than Mr. Lee. He appreciated that argument. And so we decided to, with my help, start investing in the in the mining sector. And and the rule was really he would tell me when China was expanding and contracting, I'd pick the assets. So I decide what companies we'd invest in, what or bodies we'd invest in. He'd decide whether we put our foot on the gas or put on the brake, i.e. where we investing or where we selling. And that partnership worked beautifully for ten years. But he had some specific guidance. And as you say, these are rules that we implemented with Mr. Lee. And it worked so well with Mr. Lee that I've adopted it as our investment strategy for Queen's Road. And that is rule number one, don't lose Mr. Lee's money. And that now translates into don't lose Queen's Road shareholders money. And how do you do that? Well, the wonderful thing about the resource business is that you can make a lot of money. Stocks can scream upwards at the right time and with the right ore body and the right point in their development. The bad thing about the resource industry is it's very easy to lose money. And so you need to protect yourself. You need to find a way to invest where you have unlimited exposure to that upside, that explosive upside, where you can make a lot of money, but at the same time try to limit your downside so that you don't lose all your money when things turn bad. When cycles go against you. When bear markets arise. Just like what we've seen over the course of the last 6 to 8 weeks of this bear market that we're currently in, you want to protect yourself from those, especially in the mining sector. So we developed a strategy to use convertible debentures. We invest Queen's Road invests virtually exclusively at this point in convertible debentures. And the great thing about converts is that they protect our downside. We are the top rank in the capital structure in every company we invest in. We are a debt security, so we are protected in terms of our downside, but we have unlimited exposure to the upside. So that is the way we address Mr. Lee's first rule, which is make them a lot of money, but never lose them as money. Candice: [00:08:39] Right. Warren Gilman: [00:08:40] His second rule was you didn't get Mr. Lee's money for free. That applies to Queens Road shareholders. I don't get Queens Road shareholder money for free. I feel obligated, just as I was obligated to Mr. Lee, to pay rent on their money every year. And that rent I pay in the form of a dividend. And I paid that dividend to Mr. Lee year in, year out for ten years. And you might recall that period, 2009 to 2019, there were some pretty horrible mining years in that period, and we still managed to pay him a dividend at the end of every single year. And that's our intention with Queens Road. Last year was our first full year of operation and we paid our maiden dividend this year. 2022 is our second full year of operation and we will, in the coming weeks announce our second annual dividend, thus fulfilling my obligation both to Mr. Lee and Spirit, i.e. don't get his money for free and my obligation to Queens Road shareholders, which we will do every year. So that is the underlying philosophy of Queens Road. Invest in the sector. Get unlimited upside exposure. Protect your downside so you don't lose your shareholders, your investors money. And oh, by the way, pay them a dividend every single year. And you do that simply by limiting your investment, not to straight equity, limiting it to investment in convertible debentures securities. Why wouldn't you do that? It sounds to me like the perfect way to gain all the upside in the resource sector and protect yourself along the way. So that's what we do. And I think it's a wonderful formula. Felicity: [00:10:35] Yeah, it almost sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? Candice. Candice: [00:10:39] Yeah. And that's what I guess is very unique about Queensland Capital is there's not a lot of Delta finance businesses out there that do exactly what you do in the resource space and have the expertise and track record to to prove it. Warren Gilman: [00:10:52] I'll go one further. Sorry to interrupt. I'll go one for you. Go ahead. You said there aren't many. There aren't any. No one else is doing this. We're the only one. I was doing it privately for Mr. Leigh for ten years then. Now with Queen's Road, people have the opportunity through an investment in TSX listed Queen's Road, to participate in that structure, to participate in that knowledge base and invest just like we did for Mr. Lee and no one else is doing it. And so it's a great position. Candice: [00:11:27] In the listed space. Right. Do you know of any competitors in the private space still? Like, do you have any contacts there still? Warren Gilman: [00:11:33] I certainly have all the contacts in the world, in the private space. And no, I don't know anyone who does this exclusively on in a private space either. But it's a bit of a moot point because even if they were there, no, you can't participate in it. Felicity: [00:11:48] So that's true. Candice: [00:11:50] So being very unique, the business model that you do, I guess taking a step back because you've given us a great high level of, you know, why you do it for those two investment golden rules. Talk us through the process. Right. You've identified an asset. You've identified an interesting investment. How does the connotes work? You know, give me the one I want. If I had no idea how it was working from an investment perspective to get the yield that you're talking about. Warren Gilman: [00:12:15] Very, very, very simple. And I can use NexGen as an example. Here is one of the world's great uranium ore bodies, not one of the world's. It is the greatest uranium ore body ever discovered by mankind in the history of mankind. I sit there with a convertible debenture and next gen. I'm the only one and I'm the only debt holder in the entire company. So this company, we invested 15 million USD into next gen buy a convertible debenture. They pay us seven and a half percent interest every year. That coupon consists of 5% cash and two and a half percent shares. I don't mind adding to my share position every quarter because I'd like to accumulate that paper as much as possible. That money flows into the company and that, plus all the other coupons that we receive, pays the bills to operate the company, and all the money that's left over gets paid out to my shareholders in the form of a dividend. So that's how it works. In a particular case, I'm sure your next question will be how do you decide who you're going to invest in? But if if that questions coming up I'll I'll leave it to whenever you want to ask it. Candice: [00:13:41] It it is you must be a mind reader. We want to go there. We want to go there. But but before we do so. So essentially you taking debt position in these businesses that you've done your data on and you know that it's not a high risk investment return. And then just to kind of finish that off, what would be the typical time horizon that you're invested in these can before something else happens for you to go? All right. We need to re-evaluate the position here. Warren Gilman: [00:14:09] If it's a Canadian, debenture or debenture or an investment in a Canadian company, those are all five year convertible debentures and they're five years for a reason. If they're five years, there's no withholding tax whatsoever on the coupon. So all of that money flows into Queen's Road without any tax taken away. Queen's Road is a Caymans based company. We don't pay tax on interest, dividends, capital gains, etc. So it's a very, very tax efficient structure. Other companies, Adriatic being an example, whether they're a ASX listed or a London listed, those tend to be four year debentures because they don't have the same five year rule that Canada does. So we have a mix of four year or five year maturities on our convert. We will in the absence of any external change, we will hold those debentures to maturity simply because it's in our best interest to do so. I will receive all of those coupons right through to maturity. I'll be then be able to pass on those coupons through my dividends to my shareholders and through that entire period I can convert any amount of my debenture, whether it's 1 million or $20 million, any amount at any time into shares, if I want to, and sell those shares. Now, I mentioned at the very beginning of this statement that barring any external activity or action and what I mean by that the most likely occurrence is one of these companies get taken over because we only invest, frankly, in companies that have such wonderful lower bodies that every single one of them are takeover targets. So in the event that one of them is subject to a takeover bid, then obviously at that point we have the ability to convert our debentures early and realise a significant profit, then reinvest that capital in a new investment and continue on in that cycle. But barring a takeover of the company for something as dramatic as that. I would not see us converting into equity prior to the maturity date of our debenture. Felicity: [00:16:35] Can you tell us the process of actually identifying the assets that you want to hold in your portfolio and your investment process? Warren Gilman: [00:16:43] There are two pieces of magic in Queen's Road, I would say. One is the structure. And then number two is who are we targeting? Who will we invest in? And one, frankly, is related to the other, because since we're not investing in common shares of a target company, we are investing in convertible debentures. Convertible debentures mean that the target company, the Investee Company, has an obligation to pay us our coupon every year. Only the companies with the best assets are capable of doing that. You don't want to put the obligation of paying interest on a debt instrument, on a junior exploration company, or a company that has a marginal project that may or may not ever come into production. The whole structure of a convertible debenture naturally self selects great projects that can afford to pay the interest on the convertible debenture. So as I say, our structure actually reinforces our targeting. And other than that. How do I decide? I'm all about the ore body. It's going to be a wonderful, wonderful deposit. I'm commodity agnostic. I don't care whether it's a uranium project, a gold project, a copper project, a nickel project. I'll invest in any metal there is in the world as long as this is one of the world's great or bodies in that metal. There again, that selection process reinforces our ability to pick grade or bodies. And when you look at the targets that we have picked over the course of the last two years, each one of them is unique and each one of them is a high. Our project that will be attractive to any number of suitors, hence the potential takeover of any one of those investments. I would add one other thing that we are relatively geopolitically conservative when looking at where the other bodies are located. So what I mean by that is we don't go to what Mr. Leigh referred to as funny countries. Yes, we are in the mining business, so we do have to go where the bodies are and those are bodies are not in downtown Sydney. And maybe that's a good thing. We have to go a little bit further afield. But generally speaking, we've been sticking to safe countries and predominantly were exposed to the North American geopolitical environment. Felicity: [00:19:46] Yeah. So you have a very, I guess, diligent investment process. So just to summarise for our listeners, essentially the structure is a debenture and then you have the potential option to take equity if you say there's a potential takeover and. The ability to make some significant money for your shareholders? Warren Gilman: [00:20:05] That is absolutely correct. We can convert our debenture into equity at any time at a set price and we would do that if the takeover price is above our conversion price. If it isn't, we usually so far in every single case of a change of control provision in our debentures, such that if the takeover price is not above our conversion price, that we still get a premium on the value of our debenture. That's a change of control provision we have in every debenture, so that even if equity prices fall in, one of our target companies is subject to an unwanted solicitation and an unwanted takeover at a low price. And that and that takeover is ultimately successful. We get a premium to the value of our debenture, so we win whether the stock price is high or whether the stock prices low. Right. Another unique aspect of our debentures. Felicity: [00:21:12] How good is that. Candice: [00:21:14] Not losing capital going back to the golden first rule? So I just want to pick up on that and there's going to be a couple of follow up questions here because my brain just kind of rattling off while you were chatting about your process. So at the moment, Warren, Queensland Capital has six investments in the portfolio. We will for our listeners, you know, give here from Warren a high level on why he's picked these six different assets and what makes them unique. But is six a right number for you? Do you have a one in one out policy like the process you just explained when you have that exit potential and premium opportunity, you know, is that how you run the portfolio or is there an optimal number that you think shareholders and yourself want to have in Queensland capital? Warren Gilman: [00:21:57] This is a model that benefits from scale. You will basic portfolio theory as you diversify your risk reduces so as we add investments and become more diversified in terms of commodity, in terms of geography, in terms of investee company breadth, the risk for the entire portfolio will fall. And we're all about reducing risk, protecting the downside. So as Queen's Road grows, we will become a less risky investment. So the answer to your question, Candice, is note six is not the right number. Ultimately, we'll probably grow to a portfolio of 20 or 30. Converts will be a significantly larger company by being larger, will have greater diversity of income, obviously greater income, and we'll be paying higher and higher dividends. So we expect this company will grow significantly. One thing I will say is that we will always be a high conviction investor. We don't want to have 100 convertible debentures of 5 million or 10 million. We want to invest 20 million, 30 million at a time. We once we make these investments, we are big believers in them. We actively help those companies grow. We help those companies reach shareholders across the world that they may not have had the ability to reach prior to our involvement. And ultimately, we want to help them build their mind, recognise the true value of the ore body they're in. So we'll always be high conviction. Investors concentrate our our portfolio in relatively big investments but the number will grow six will become 20. Candice: [00:24:10] Yeah. And so I guess a third rule listening to you go through that process would be quality over quantity and don't over diversify for the sake of it. So high conviction diversification is key. So let's jump into the six that you have. Now want to start off with uranium. You touched on next gen but you also have I so energy in the portfolio I guess why uranium why these assets and what attracted you back in 2020? Warren Gilman: [00:24:35] The first answer is I'm all about the ore body and next gen is, as I mentioned, you know, God's gift to the uranium industry. It is a phenomenal ore body. And when you look at the high grade, a two part of the reserves that the company has, you're looking at £160 million at 7%, 17. Percent uranium 17. You won't find in ore body in Australia that's 10% of that grade, maybe even 1/100 of that grade. This ore body will be the world's greatest uranium mine when it comes into production a few years from now. That's what drove me to invest in next gen and that's what drove me to cause Mr. Lee to invest 170 million U.S. dollars in the deposit before I did, before I started Queen's Road. As good as next gen is. ISO was our second investment. ISO just two or three weeks ago announced their maiden resource. And as I mentioned, next gen is 17% uranium. ISO just announced a deposit of £50 million at 37% uranium 37. That order is so hot you can't even hold it in your hand. Wow. This is again just a spectacular ore body. I recognised that ore body two years ago when we made our first investment. As I said, they just made their first resource announcement two or three weeks ago. We invested in it two years ago. I knew that the ore body was going to be spectacular. I wasn't. I would never have hoped that it'd be 30%, 37% uranium. So that gives you an idea of the things that we that we look for. So that's that's the answer. Ore body. Quality of ore body. We just also probably got lucky with the idea that, you know, we're on the right side of the uranium trade. Uranium will go higher. The supply demand fundamentals for uranium are fabulous. And I'm a big believer in the uranium price. But frankly, is that why I made the investment in next gen or ISO? No, I do not invest in our bodies simply because I'm hoping that the commodity will go up. I want the best commodity and I'll make money whether the commodity goes up or even if it goes down. It's just a question of these. Our bodies are so good. It's simply a question of how much money will the company make? How much money will Queen's Road shareholders make? But there isn't a realistic scenario where they will lose money because these are bodies will make money. Even if the uranium price dropped in half, they would still make money. Felicity: [00:27:38] That's good. Warren Gilman: [00:27:38] To hear. So that's what we look for. Felicity: [00:27:40] And I guess uranium is considered really a green energy. So it's kind of all played out quite well for you over the last couple of years with everything else that's been going on. Warren Gilman: [00:27:50] Yeah, and we've always been a believer in that. We've always been a believer in the green aspects of uranium. There's a great slide in the NexGen presentation which I quote often that talks about Tesla producing a million cars in the coming year, and of those million Teslas, maybe a quarter of them or a third of them are actually green cars and that they're operating off of a power grid that's a green power grid and not effectively being coal powered Teslas. Candice: [00:28:26] Right. Warren Gilman: [00:28:26] Like all the Teslas where, where I, where I live, we have huge numbers of Teslas, but they're all coal powered Teslas because all the coal, all the power in Hong Kong is coal powered. So talk about with Tesla, a $1 trillion company taking effectively 250,000 gas guzzlers off the road every year. Next gen ore body, when it's producing £27 million a year, will effectively take 70 million cars off the road in terms of CO2 replacement, 70 million versus Tesla's 250,000. Yeah. So when you talk about actual impact on the environment, uranium miners like NexGen, like ISO are very, very green indeed. Candice: [00:29:18] So the probability for those two investments, I would say are pretty low that it's going to be a takeover. You're sounding like you have got a strong conviction that they're going to be, you know, one of the best suppliers in this market, you know, for the EV supply chain. Is that correct? Have I got that right? Warren Gilman: [00:29:34] I certainly hope we get to the point where we can actually build both those mines, that there is a risk that we won't get there. They're obviously very big incumbent players, both in the uranium industry, in the broader energy sector, you know, even oil companies who are looking to green themselves, you know, like Shell and and Chevron to have a green bigger. A green component to their energy portfolio. Right. Okay. It's a natural diversification for them. And even the big mining companies, whether it's Rio or BHP or Anglo, to have greater green exposure in their portfolios, in an asset, in a safe jurisdiction like Saskatchewan, Canada, it's a bit of a no brainer. So there is always a risk that one of those parties may interfere with our plan to actually build this mine. Felicity: [00:30:30] Of course. I mean, but it does sound like these could potentially be the companies that you do want to convert to equity. Now we're going to hear a lot more about Warren's thoughts on ESG investing gold, silver, as well as the Queen's Road Capital Pipeline. But before we do, we're just going to have a quick break and hear from our sponsors. [00:30:47][17.3] [00:30:50] So you're exposed to silver and gold mining companies like Contango or in the US as well as Adriatic Metals, which is a precious and base metals development company which owns the vast silver project. Now do you have any views on where these commodities are actually heading in the next 12 months? Obviously, there's a lot of gold companies that are being sold off lately. Do you think it's creating a good buying opportunity? Warren Gilman: [00:31:18] Let me step back, Felicity. Again, I'll emphasise all about the ore body. So we made the investment in Adriatic not because it was silver, but because it's just a fantastic ore body. I mentioned NexGen earlier. NexGen at $50 a pound uranium, which is where we are right now, has an era of about 54, 55%. So a great high return project. Adriatic has an IRR in excess of 100%. Candice: [00:31:51] Well, okay. Warren Gilman: [00:31:52] As profitable as NexGen and ISO will be. Adriatic and the Veras project is hugely profitable. That said, you're right. I am focussing on gold and silver at the moment because I do believe that all portfolio should have an exposure to precious metals. You look at where we are today, inflation at 40 year highs. A war, a shooting war in Europe, in the Ukraine. Nancy Pelosi announcing today that she's visiting Taiwan tomorrow or the day after. There's a lot of risk out there. There's a lot of uncertainty. Great to have gold and silver in your portfolio. Great to have that exposure represented by great or bodies like Adriatic and Vera's. So, yes, to the ore body, yes to the commodity exposure and yes to the timing. The timing is very purposeful. We have been in a bear market for gold and silver equities for over two years now. So the equities, the price of gold has held up very well, 1700, 1800, 1900 dollars an ounce. But the equities have been cut in half to a third over the last two years. Then the bear market that we're currently experiencing for the last 6 to 8 weeks, then the bear market hit just when the gold and silver equities were bottoming out. We went into a bear market and those stocks got hit even harder. Put it bluntly, there's a sale going on right now and high quality gold and silver equities. We want to increase our exposure to those while the sale is on. And we are working as we speak on two or three other potential converts in the precious metal space simply because great everybody's great commodity and boy, this is the time to do it. Felicity: [00:33:53] Essentially, you're not putting too much focus on the commodity, but you are carefully thinking about which commodities you do want to invest in. But you're only really trying to control what you actually can control, which is the quality of the asset. Warren Gilman: [00:34:07] One of the big factors in mining is timing, and you can make all the right decisions in the world, but if you have bad timing, your returns will be impacted. So whatever we do, we always keep in mind, is this the time to do this? And certainly in precious metals, this is the time for gold. Candice: [00:34:31] Gold lovers out there will be loving, loving that statement that there's going to be, you know, to more that you're looking at. So just to 5:00. Yeah. So just quickly, the last two investments within the portfolio is in within is within copper. And I'm probably going to say this wrong, so correct me if I say it wrong is ask Osco. So why these two? And I guess to wrap up the full six at the moment, I know you're not meant to have a favourite child, but is there one that stands out the most in terms of the assets that you're the most excited about? Warren Gilman: [00:35:04] Well, that's a great question. My favourite child, that is a very difficult one. But yes, so cover off on the battery metals two investment so far there will be more in copper and nickel. So far, Los Andes copper again all about the ore body. It is a fabulous classic copper porphyry, huge deposit just outside of Santiago. This is an ore body that will be attractive to every medium sized two major miner in the world to get exposure of scale to copper. So Los Andes is a no brainer. And the other one is osisko. Candice: [00:35:47] So it's definitely around. Warren Gilman: [00:35:51] Cisco Green is a SPAC. It's an unusual investment for Queen's Road, but I believe the SPAC structure, since we are a founder of the SPAC and therefore get an uplift when the dispatching transaction occurs, which will be in the next year. Cisco is also founded by the Cisco management team, who are perhaps the most successful mining entrepreneurs in Canada today. So they effectively are working for Queen's Road right now, trying to find a battery metals deposit in Canada that we can advance and eventually bring into production. So in terms of having great people working for you, having guys like Shawn Crewson and John Brzezinski working for you, trying to find an asset to develop in the battery metals space, I'll do that all day long. We'll see what that ore body is and we'll have an opportunity to decide whether we pursue it or ask for our money back in any classic dispatching transaction. So those are those are the two battery metals investments that we've made so far. And then as to your question about favoured child. Yes, as difficult as it is to say, I have this fondness and maybe it's come through through this podcast, but you know, NexGen and the arrow deposit. The Arrow deposit. I'm a mining engineer. I've been in the business for 40 years now. I have never seen any ore body like this. You only get one of these one time in your life that will increase our exposure to that whenever we have the opportunity to do so. Candice: [00:37:41] Okay. Alright, watch that space. So just pivoting, I guess, into more of the future facing commodity, you know, supply chain, somatic and ESG investing. There's a lot of argument going on at the moment that, you know, perhaps the market's needs to split out the ESG and focus on E to really tackle climate change. Some are some economists and brilliant people in the market are saying let's change it to emissions. So I guess I'd love to hear your experience in the mining sector. You would have seen it not really talked about 30 years ago. And now it's really topical, right. How in your opinion, are companies effectively doing it at tackling climate change and trying to reduce emissions? And on the other side, greenwashing? You know, any comments on that side of the you know, the spectrum? You know, like your comment with Tesla, it's all well and good buying an EV car. But if it's not if it's not a green source that you're you're using through and through the whole model, you know, it's defeats the purpose. Right. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. Warren Gilman: [00:38:46] Indeed. To your point, Candice, we've seen both. We've seen companies claim to be green companies who clearly aren't companies that generate the majority of their revenue from coal claiming to be green companies. When you see that, you think, why don't they just be honest and straight up and say, look, you're a coal company and recognise that and if you want to own us, own us. But if you don't, we understand and you have a choice. You know, I think being open and direct is the better solution rather than trying to colour yourself in a flare or wrap yourself in a flag that isn't truly representative on the other side of the scale, we see companies making great strides. We see companies focussing on the metals that will have a positive impact on the environment in the future. We see a significant change in terms of impact on the environment and emissions in existing operations and certainly the engineering community has refocused in planning and development of our bodies in the future for the lowest impact and the lowest emissions while producing metals we need for a green future. So the change Candace that that you have hinted at in the last two years has been immense. One might say it's long overdue, but none of us realised until recently how important this was. And now that people have internalised that and accepted it, the change is going to very be very quick and very dramatic. And I just hope that people realise that along the way. Don't let. Prejudices and worries colour your judgement. Things like uranium is are a positive influence on climate in the world and a major, major, positive impact. And we shouldn't lose sight of that as we move forward. Felicity: [00:41:11] Speaking of change and speaking of future growth, you've also just joined the Toronto Stock Exchange. Main Trading Reserve, the TSX. So I guess where to next for the company? Warren Gilman: [00:41:21] Yes, I had the the honour and the the thrill of opening trading on the Toronto Stock Exchange two Fridays ago as we graduated. Bit of a reflection of Queen's Road's growth. We started from nothing two years ago. We're listed on the Toronto Venture Exchange and have now grown to a size and significance that we are the main board of the Toronto Stock Exchange. So we're hoping that that will open us up to a breadth of investors, not only across North America but across the world. Where to from here? Well, we haven't talked about my shareholder base. Our major shareholders are some of the most well-known people in Australia. Jack Cowin, Hungry Jack, Andrew Forrest, Twiggy Forrest both own about 26% each of Queen's Road. Brett, Blondie, John Singleton. These are all household names. Major shareholders and I'm honoured by their support given the fact that they're household Aussie names. Candice: [00:42:29] Speaking of Aussies and speaking of growth, you know, is there any projects that is looking interesting in your opinion within Australia or the APAC region? If you can if you can chat about it. Warren Gilman: [00:42:42] We are actually I mentioned earlier on that we in conversations with a few other companies right now about our other investments and a couple in particular in the gold sector and in the copper sector. And two of those are Aussie companies. So my colleague Alex Granger is actually in-country on site right now, putting boots on the ground on one of those, doing our due diligence for for one of those potential ASX based investment. So more to come. Felicity: [00:43:18] I mean everyone listening definitely watch this space and start following Queen's Road Capital. Now, Warren, we have one last question that we really like to ask all of our guests. Coffee, tea or tequila? Warren Gilman: [00:43:35] It's all of the above, depending on the occasion. But life life cannot cannot start without coffee. So I'll go with the coffee. Candice: [00:43:46] Well, thank you so much for joining us today on our chat. I talk money to me, there's just so much to to take from today's conversation. But I think really the way you started it with those golden rules, don't lose money and pay a dividend to shareholders. I think, you know. Felicity: [00:44:03] Don't get money for great. Candice: [00:44:04] Yeah, yeah. Don't get money for it. Don't get money for free. Everybody gets a little bit caught up with the headlines and what's going on. Geopolitical and you know, such like. But just going back to basics, I just I think that's fantastic. So thank you so much for joining us today. Warren Gilman: [00:44:20] My pleasure, Candice. Felicity, I really enjoyed our conversation. And as as we evolve, we'll reconnect again and give you the latest updates. Candice: [00:44:31] Definitely. And see you Down Under very soon. Felicity: [00:44:33] Thanks, Warren. Warren Gilman: [00:44:34] Looking forward to it. Candice: [00:44:36] Wow. What a fantastic chat. I hope you guys enjoy that conversation with Warren Gilman. Again, if you're wanting to find more about Queen's our capital, get out your Bloomberg. Look up QR see in your app there. Now before we sign off, please remember, although in AI financial advisors at Shriram Partners, as always, our discussion today does not constitute as personal financial advice. If you need to make any decisions based around our conversation today, it's not considered personal advice. Always go out and seek your own investment professional. And of course, the facts that we're talking about today with Warren are based on the time of recording, which is the 2nd of August 2020, to.