Zooming Out: How to Stay Calm and Confident in the Face of Investing Challenges

Bryce: [00:00:31] Welcome to get started investing in this podcast. We cover all the basics that you need to start your investing journey. Are you joining us for the very first time? Is this the very start of your investing journey? Well, before you dive into this episode with us, our effort is designed to go from the very beginning, so we strongly recommend that you scroll up and started episode one here, get started investing. We unpack all of the jargon and the confusing bits. We hear your investing stories with the goal of making investing less intimidating, and we want to have a good time along the way. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you? 

Alec: [00:01:06] I'm very good, Bryce. I can hear that you're not going too well. I think the Equity Mates community can hear that you're not going through a well based on your voice. Yes, it is.

Bryce: [00:01:16] I'm a little under the weather. 

Alec: [00:01:16] but the show must go on. You've done a rat test. 

Bryce: [00:01:20] Markets, don't close? Well, they do close, but markets don't sleep well. They do sleep. 

Alec: [00:01:25] And everyone forgive him. He's a bit sick. 

Bryce: [00:01:29] Markets keep on. We're always going to. 

Alec: [00:01:30] Be a loose equity thing. But I'm a little bit nervous because I am stuck in a studio with you all morning and I haven't had my flu shot, so hopefully I get that deep, gravelly voice that you have. If I get sick next week. 

Bryce: [00:01:44] Hope you don't get sick. So speaking of a little bit scared when a lot of the community might be feeling a bit scared with what's going on in markets at the moment. And today's episode is all about just the reassurance that they're trying to provide a bit of reassurance around what's going on. This isn't the first time that markets have have gone into a correction or a bear market with fears of recession on the horizon. And we're just going to take a little bit of a little bit of time to allay some fears that the community might be having. 

Alec: [00:02:17] Yeah, this is the episode that you listen to when the markets are down even more in the coming days, weeks or maybe in future years, because the market will go up and down and it will go down again in the future. But the great thing about history is it shows us that the market goes up more than it goes down, and that's the beauty of investing. But it's scary at the moment, and it's scary. I mean, the day today we're recording the American market had a terrible night overnight. I think the tech heavy Nasdaq 100 was down like 5%. The broader S&P 500 index was down 4%. If you're not familiar with those acronyms, all you need to know is that American stock prices were a lot lower at the end of the day yesterday than they were at the start of the day, about 5% lower on average. And it's a theme that we're living through this year. In America, it's down about 15, almost 20% now. Yeah, Australia were down about 5%. 

Bryce: [00:03:18] Yeah. Now I often have a crack at Australia on the other side where, you know, we say the US market up ten, 20, 20% over a 12 month period and the ASX only up a measly seven, 8%. It does go the other way though. Good to say. 

Alec: [00:03:33] I think the big takeaway here is we always complain about banks and miners. Yeah, that's why you complain because the returns on is big. But banks and miners are doing well in a inflationary and rising interest rate environment. 

Bryce: [00:03:47] Yeah. Yeah. So the, the Aussie market holding up a little bit better than all the tech companies. 

Alec: [00:03:52] Whereas Tech America's Nasdaq 100 index, which has the majority of the big and small tech companies, down 24% year to date. Yeah. So about a quarter of the money that you had in those tech stocks in the start of the year has disappeared into the aether. 

Bryce: [00:04:10] Unfortunately, it has. 

Alec: [00:04:11] And we're here to tell you that it's okay. 

Bryce: [00:04:15] It is okay. Don't panic. It's okay. And we're going to go through a few sort of key reminders that we use ourselves when we hit times like this. And take a look at some of the points in history where we've gone through what we're going through now and can demonstrate that it's it doesn't all end here. So I saw something during the week, ran a social post and it said, if in doubt, zoom out. Yeah. And it was just it's just a great reminder where you can get so stuck in looking at the charts year to date charts or that the chart of the Nasdaq overnight down 5%. And you forget to kind of click that view of what's it been like since the 1900s? 

Alec: [00:04:58] Yeah, because if you had invested 100,000, if you had invested $1,000 in the stock market in 1900 and not done anything and just let it compound today, you'd be dead.

Bryce: [00:05:14] Yes, that's another good one. 

Alec: [00:05:15] So I agree that you got to zoom out, but, you know, no one is going to invest for 122 years. No. 

Bryce: [00:05:23] But the the idea that you should try and put things in perspective when these things. Happen is, is is what I'm getting at here.

Alec: [00:05:32] Yeah. And the great thing is, you don't have to zoom out that far. You can zoom out a decade, a couple of decades. And the story is the same. The stock market recovers and there is a reason why it recovers because the stock market isn't this arbitrary. It's not an arbitrary field of numbers and lines and data points moving up and down. And it's not random. There is meaning behind it all, and the meaning behind it all is companies getting more productive, getting more innovative, entrepreneurs starting new businesses, inventing new products and services. Economy is getting more efficient. The stock market is just a reflection of the story of human progress, and that is why it continues to rebound, because we have recessions in the economy and we have periods where businesses struggle and the economy's weak. But overall, like you look at any time period and it's a story of progress and the stock market is simply reflecting that progress. 

Bryce: [00:06:35] Well, speaking of time periods, we've got some stats here that help sort of highlight that, if in doubt, zoom out between 1900 ran in 2008. The Aussie stock market had 23 years where it went down. Where we're definitely in a moment of down at the moment. But zoom out 96 years where it went up. So that's an 80 a period of during that period, 81% of those years were good years. 

Alec: [00:07:04] Yeah. You take that. I definitely 81% of the years in my life were good years. I would say that was a good life. 

Bryce: [00:07:14] Well, what other examples do you try and use when it comes to the if in doubt? 

Alec: [00:07:18] So this is my favourite JFK story. Everyone's going to have a favourite JFK story. Yes. You got a favourite JFK story. 

Bryce: [00:07:25] Well it's it's. 

Alec: [00:07:37] No, no, no. The essence of marketing is repetition. Like you didn't retire. Just do it because everyone had got the message. Get out and run. They they leant into it even harder. So this is my Nike swoosh. 

Bryce: [00:07:53] Okay. 

Alec: [00:07:53] So Lehman Brothers, the American investment bank, collapsed on a monday. And that was really when things got bad. That was when people were like, all this subprime mortgage crisis is going to become a global economic crisis. So Lehman collapsed on a monday. If you had invested in the S&P 500 index fund, just the basket of all the big American stocks, the Friday before that Monday, in the following six months, you would have lost half your money, 50% down. That hurts. That is terrible. That is we talk about you can't time the market. You have done the worst possible market timing there. But over time, the market recovered. Now, it took you six years to get back to even, which would have been a long six years just to recover your initial investment. But ten years after you made that first investment, you would have doubled your money. And if you'd had a dividend reinvestment plan on, you would have tripled your money in that ten years. 

Bryce: [00:08:57] There you.

Alec: [00:08:58] Go. So even if you invest right before the global economy had melted down in 2008 and you had just shut your eyes, gone to the beach, had gone to the shops and not not looked at your portfolio. Things got better after a very terrible start, and then things got really good towards the end of that decade. 

Bryce: [00:09:22] Love that, love that going to the shot. 

Alec: [00:09:27] So for me, that is why it is it is a story that exemplifies everything that we talk about when it comes to long term investing, the power of compounding, even throw in dividend reinvestment and the juicing of the compounding that that can do. Well, here's. 

Bryce: [00:09:41] Another here's another example of where things have got a lot better after becoming pretty bad. We all remember what happened in February of 2020, which is when it all came out that COVID was rife and the markets understood the impact that might have. And we saw the sharpest fall on Wall Street in history. And it was a it was a pretty meaningful drop, I think, of about 30%. And it just happened, it felt like overnight. But then we saw a period where it bounced incredibly quickly. I think it was the sharpest bounce in history as well. Usually it takes on average about two years for a market to recover from a crash. But the recovery from the 2020. Klein only took 149 days. And then not only did it recover, but it went on to hit record highs. Over the last year or so. So another reminder that if you are trying to pick the bottom or you're worried about what's going on, markets have have always recovered and there's been no clear example of the speed at which that can happen. Now, of course, we're not saying that this is going to happen again, like there's nothing to say. We're going to see another historic bounce over the next week or so, but it's just a reminder that it's not the end of the world.

Alec: [00:11:03] I think, yeah, that's an important point. In 2000, it took about two years, three years for the market to get to the bottom from the top when it started falling to the bottom. It wasn't something like we saw during COVID, where it happened in like a month. It happened over a few years, which would have sucked in like if anywhere in the 2001 equivalent. And we've got two years to go, like it's going to be a tough two years. I don't know if we'll have podcast listeners and. 

Bryce: [00:11:34] At the beach and the shore. 

Alec: [00:11:35] But the thing is, the opportunities that sprung up in 2002, 2003 were incredible. Yeah. And in the same, you know, the example I spoke about before with the global financial crisis, it took six years to just go back to even again. It's not something that happens overnight. The COVID period maybe changed our perspective on how quickly things happen, but things don't always happen quickly. It's an important point. Yeah, if we look at the COVID period in Australia though, so if you would invested in the start of 2020, by the 23rd of March, so two and a half months after you started investing, you would have lost a third of your money and you probably would have acted. Yeah, but if you hadn't packed it in by the 24th of November, you would have been back to even so it would have been a rocky year, but you would have come out of the year ahead because the market kept growing after the 24th November when gangbusters. Well, now since then. Well, we had a great 2021 and then we had a weak 2022. But I think that's the point that we've still got a couple of more examples to go in this episode, that there are good times and there are bad times, but history has told us that the good times outweigh the bad times. 

Bryce: [00:12:51] Well, this is a that's a great Segway, one of our favourite investors, Patrick O'Shaughnessy. We spoke about his book A Fair Bit, Millennial Money. Go and check that out. It's a it's a great introductory book on on how to think about investing and building portfolios. It's on our website. We have a book page on our website, so go and check that out. But he tries to highlight the good outweighing the bad in this quote. And he says, In the post Clinton period between 1993 and 2011, the stock market grew by a real 162%. 

Alec: [00:13:25] And just to interrupt your quote, real buying. 

Bryce: [00:13:28] Real buying, adjusted for inflation in today's day and age. So the post. 

Alec: [00:13:35] In any day and age. 

Bryce: [00:13:38] So this post 1993 stock market growth happened despite two of the worst market crashes that we have ever seen. And that is the 2000 tech bubble and the 2008 global financial crisis. And that's when the stock market declined in each instance by more than 40%. So that's another great reminder to zoom out. If in doubt, you've gone through two of the worst stock market crashes yet over a 20 year period. You had real returns of 162%. 

Alec: [00:14:12] So you said that the stock market declined more than 40% twice in 2000 and 2008. And in 2000, some of the tech names declined about 80%. Yeah. So the overall U.S. market overall today has dropped about 20%. So we're not at 2000 and 2008 levels yet. 

Bryce: [00:14:32] We have seen some techs, though, hit 70 and 80% at the moment. 

Alec: [00:14:36] Yeah, we definitely have. But I think it's just an important reminder that we're not that 2000 or 2008 level yet we're not saying we're at the bottom here was could be to come and where we've just got to be ready for that but yeah 1993 to 2011, even with those two terrible events, those two historic events, you're more than doubled your money, 162% after inflation is more than doubling your money on inflation. That's epic. So like, if we sound like a broken record, we know and this won't be the last time we talk about some of these things, because it's the most important thing to remind ourselves of now, because we're all worried. Like, I look at my portfolio and I'm like, Oh, it was looking a lot better three months ago. And there's a real temptation to just like. Sell everything and go into cash or like, you know, try and do something and like, you know, short the market or go sell everything and go into, like, oil stocks. And I think just using these reminders of the value of long term investing is a useful thing to just settle the nerves. Because if you try and go in all into oil, stocks are all into cash. What can often happen is that you miss the recovery or you get in the recovery too late and you're starting from behind. And there's a whole bunch more starts that we can talk about there. But that's probably another episode. 

Bryce: [00:16:06] Yeah, I can put my hand on my heart and say I haven't sold a single thing. So admittedly I like if you if I really wanted to try and maximise my profits, all those ones, maybe I should have. But I just think it's against everything that we've spoken about on the show. I think it's it's a I, I've looked at everything that we're talking about right now. I think back to the March 2020. Exactly. You miss you missed the bottom. You're going to miss the recovery. What's the point? And at the end of the day, as well, like I can also say that, you know, perhaps fortunate in a position that I don't need the money that's in the stock market right now. Like that's all that also gives me comfort. Everything I've put in there is for the longer term. Yeah. And if it's not that I need it now to pay my rent, I don't need it to fix the dent in my car, those sorts of things. So that also gives me confidence. Like I'm 30 years old. Well, now, 31. 

Alec: [00:17:01] And we should be clear, Bryce's car is shocking. He also smashed the back windshield recently. 

Bryce: [00:17:07] Not intentionally. 

Alec: [00:17:09] Well, it would be weird if you did it in test. Like no one smashes their car intentionally.

Bryce: [00:17:14] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. If it if people are wondering what Ren and I are doing right now, I've confessed. Firstly tell you that. Um. Yeah, we both good to know. We both wholeheartedly haven't sold. 

Alec: [00:17:24] Oh, that's because I've just never bought anything. 

Bryce: [00:17:26] Oh, you're full of cash. 

Alec: [00:17:29] No, I can say that I haven't sold and I have bought more. Yeah. Yeah. And I bought some yesterday before the US market fell 5% which wasn't not, which was annoying but yeah, it doesn't matter. And we've got one more historical example, but then I think let's turn to the opportunity about buying more. I wanted to finish with this one because we often talk about recent history like that. It's just human nature, not well, I mean, we were alive for days, we weren't investing really, but 2000 and 2008 and 2020, those three examples of market crashes get a lot of air time and I guess Brian Space. But I want to go further back. I want to go post-World War two, 1945 to 1959, because that was a period where there were also a number of inflationary spikes. And I think it really tells the story that we're trying to tell in this episode. And I want to give a tip of the hat to Ben Carson for this one. And he's a good follow on Twitter. He's got a website, podcast, everything as well. So 1945 to 1959, the 1950s was the best decade for US stocks and between 45 and 59, the market you earn 17% a year. The US market averages about seven or 8% a year, so 17% a year for on average for those 15 years is incredible. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Bryce: [00:18:57] It's, it's. 

Alec: [00:18:58] You got. 

Bryce: [00:18:58] Me unheard of while it's not unheard of because it happened. 

Alec: [00:19:01] You just you heard it here in that 15 year period. There were three recessions. There was one in 1948 to 49, one in 53 to 54, and one from 57 to 58. Three recessions and 11 stock market corrections. 

Bryce: [00:19:19] Wow.

Alec: [00:19:20] And despite that, that 1950s was the best decade ever.

Bryce: [00:19:24] Wow. 

Alec: [00:19:25] Three recession. 

Bryce: [00:19:26] Recessions. 

Alec: [00:19:27] And market correction. 

Bryce: [00:19:28] Yes. And it was the best decade ever for stocks.

Alec: [00:19:32] Yeah. Which surprised me because I would have thought 2010 was a pretty good decade for U.S. stocks. That is just a reminder that, like, you don't make money only investing in the good times or by avoiding the bad times, you make money in spite of those bad times just riding them out. And that post-war period, I think, really tells that story. 

Bryce: [00:19:52] And so just for a bit of jargon there, recession and correction. So a correction is where we see a fall in the stock market of over 20%. 

Alec: [00:20:04] 10%. Bear market is 20%. 

Bryce: [00:20:07] Yes, yeah, yeah. Bear market 20, correction ten. And a recession is a decline in economic activity over a period of time. I think if you adjust. 

Alec: [00:20:18] To two consecutive. 

Bryce: [00:20:19] Quarters specifically to talk about it, it's yeah, two quarters of a decline in economic growth. So let's take a quick ad break, Ren and. Then we're going to talk to the exciting part, the possibilities about actually taking the opportunity to invest in the bad times and what that looks like. So let's take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. So again, it's not all doom and gloom here at Equity Mates, because these times do provide us with plenty of opportunity to invest. You mentioned there that you put some cash in the markets last night on our walk to work this morning, you were having a bit of a chinwag about some of the exciting opportunities in the land of tech despite the massive sell off. So opportunities are plentiful and it's just about how you look at these moments in time and through what lens. Yeah, it provides plenty of great opportunities for us to.

Alec: [00:21:11] Invest and this is a bit of a truism, so I don't think we need to spend too much time on this. But a lot of what we've spoken about in this episode and a lot of what you hear on social media or in the news is about holding through these periods. You know, if you'd invested before 2008 or before 2000 or before 2020, and what would happen if you held through that period? But the obvious addition to that is what happens if you had invested in those bad times. Yeah. And you know, if you had invested at the bottom of the global financial crisis in early 2009, you would have more than quadrupled your money before this recent market sell off. I'm pretty sure you would have five times your money. Which is what would you call the hint? 

Bryce: [00:21:58] Hint? 

Alec: [00:22:00] Yeah. Anyway, mathematicians write down almost six times your money if you just invest in America. And that's because these become like generational buying opportunities. And the same can be said if you look at, you know, sort of to late 2000, one, early 2002, or if you look at March 2020, when the market sells off like this and when we look back in history, we say, Damn, I wish I'd bought more of that time. So like the first part of the story is what you do with stuff you've already invested. And then the second part of the story is these are the moments that really set you up. Yeah, yeah. 

Bryce: [00:22:39] You make most of your money in a bear market, you just don't realise it at the time. Famous quote by investor anon Shelby Davis. Shelby Davis Super old school investor. He's always no longer with us. 

Alec: [00:22:50] Yeah, yeah. 

Bryce: [00:22:52] But I think that's a great quote. I saw that one during the COVID crash in 2020. And really, that's really stuck with me over the last couple of years because exactly what happened, what you just said happened to me and I look back at that period and gone, Yeah, I. 

Alec: [00:23:07] Wish I. 

Bryce: [00:23:07] Had invested. 

Alec: [00:23:08] More so. 

Bryce: [00:23:09] Frustrating. But the good thing is we have the opportunity now. Yeah. 

Alec: [00:23:12] So and I think the important thing to stress is you don't have to get it at the very bottom. Anyone who thinks they can perfectly predict the bottom is either a liar or a fool. 

Bryce: [00:23:24] Quote. 

Alec: [00:23:25] I just made that up. Now, someone would have said that before, but if you guys want to if you guys want to quote me on it, so no one perfectly predicts how the market is going to move, even the best investors sucking in the most data. And really the example here is Renaissance Technologies. They are just stupidly good investors. They only get their bets right. Like I think it's like 60% of the time, but they off like 54% of the time. But I invest a lot. No one perfectly predicts the market. The best investors of all time explicitly say they don't try and predict the market. Warren Buffett doesn't worry about what the overall market is doing. And so we shouldn't ever know. But, you know, that's that's where techniques like dollar cost averaging and stuff come into play. You had some weird formula you were using in the 2020 crash. Whatever rules work for you, the gist of all of those is regular investments over time, rather than trying to specifically pick the perfect time to invest.

Bryce: [00:24:28] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, that's a nice transition to, I guess, some of the major lessons that we've learnt over our journey there. And we've just covered one which is that crashes have been a great buying opportunity. So I think that's one to to keep in mind that if you do have some dry powder cash on the side, this is the reason that we do talk about having a bit of dry powder on the side to take advantage of those opportunities. 

Alec: [00:24:54] Now, there is one incredibly important caveat to market crashes being good buying opportunities and the idea of holding through the bad times because the good times are coming and that is only invest money that you're not going to need. Yes, because and when we say you're not going to need it, it's obviously like covering bills today, like the money you need to live today, but also money you're going to need in like 3 to 5 years. Like if you're thinking, this is the time, I'm going to put what I've saved for a house deposit into the stock market because like stock market crashes have been good buying opportunities. There's nothing to say that in three years the market isn't lower than it is today. 100% fully loaded. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like this is a. Should be like a rule of thumb wherever whatever the market's doing. But especially when times are tough like this. If you need the money in the next decade, decade, I'll just pull it out of my arse. But this is money that you don't. This is money that you've saved to invest. Yeah, yeah. 

Bryce: [00:26:00] Yeah, yeah. It's not safe to go on holidays next year. 

Alec: [00:26:03] Yeah. Yeah. Because you might not be getting on holidays next year. If, if this is the money. 

Bryce: [00:26:08] In the euro trip savings are. Yeah. 

Alec: [00:26:10] Still 25% down rather than going to Warsaw. You might be going to Wagga. 

Bryce: [00:26:16] Yeah. Yeah. All right. A couple other quick ones. Some of the lessons that we've learnt over our journey and we've spoken about this in our book as well, get started investing. Make sure you go and check that out. Stock market crashes will happen. It's a fact of life. It's the circle of life on the stock market. They will happen. The market recovers. We've said it time and time again. It's no surprise that that's a lesson, but we're seeing it right now. What's another one? Run. 

Alec: [00:26:42] Uh, don't try and time the market and predict a crash or a recovery from a crash. You'll miss out most of the time. But more importantly, you will just cause yourself unnecessary stress and you'll generate a headline like mine. 

Bryce: [00:27:00] And you don't want that. And of course we've said it before and we'll say it again when a crash happens. One of the worst things that you can do is to panic. Sell. It's often too late. You miss out on the recovery, you'll sell the wrong thing. You freak out and sell everything and gain a cash and then sit there for too long and forget that it's swung around. It's just. Just like there's no point trying to time the bottom to get back in. There's no point trying to time when the best point to sell is to then get back get back in as well. 

Alec: [00:27:27] Hindsight is easy. Hindsight is all I should have sold in February 2021 or I should have sold, you know, November 2021. But the problem with hindsight is it's just like it doesn't look, you're not smart to look back and say you should have done this because at the time, like, no one knew that February 2021 was the top for those growth tech stocks. No one knew that November 2021 was the top like did market more generally. And there are so many examples of people getting those calls wrong, of professionals getting those calls wrong. So who way to think we can do better than them? And I remember early days of Equity Mates every year. Bryce would call a recession every year. Bold prediction. The stock market's going to crash. And this was like 2018, 2019, when the market was just it was just good times all around. Yeah, except there was a little blip at the end of 2018, but that for me has just been the most important learning. It's not the if if you could pick these moments. Yes, there are strategies you could put in place. But the problem is no one is good at picking these moments. That's the problem. That's the trouble. So it's very easy to look back and say, oh, well, if you had sold in 2008 and got back in in 2010 and, you know, all of that stuff, but the problem is, at the time, you just don't you don't know these things. And so I don't worry about them. No point. Yeah. 

Bryce: [00:28:58] So again, just before we close, there is a caveat to all of this. 

Alec: [00:29:04] Well, a second caveat. A second. 

Bryce: [00:29:05] Caveat. 

Alec: [00:29:06] Yeah. 

Bryce: [00:29:06] And that is we keep saying that markets always recover. 

Alec: [00:29:10] Market markets have always have always recovered.

Bryce: [00:29:13] That is us talking about market in its entirety, the index. But we're not saying that every single company always recovers. There are plenty of instances where companies have suffered in these times and have never recovered. 

Alec: [00:29:30] Yeah, so.

Bryce: [00:29:31] Keep that in mind.

Alec: [00:29:32] Pets.com in 2000 didn't recover. Lehman Brothers in 2008 didn't recover Virgin Australia in 2020 it didn't recover.

Bryce: [00:29:42] Yeah. 

Alec: [00:29:44] The owned by Bain. 

Bryce: [00:29:44] Now Darren Brands yeah as we said historically the market the index has recovered but keep in mind that it's we're not saying here that. 

Alec: [00:29:53] Every company. 

Bryce: [00:29:53] Every company constructed. 

Alec: [00:29:57] Out of. 

Bryce: [00:29:58] That is not it at all? Exactly. 

Alec: [00:30:00] Well, Bryce, I think let's leave it there. We said it was going to be a short episode, but you've powered through and we've crossed over the half hour mark. So we all appreciate that. There is a quote that someone said and I can't remember who can remember who said it? We've had a few quotes in this episode, but given that you're just staring blankly at me, I'm going to assume you can't remember either.

Bryce: [00:30:21] So the quote, yeah, yeah. It was last week in our Equity Mates Investing podcast where we did an investor letter from Rowan Capital. 

Alec: [00:30:29] The quote is Every past stock market crash looks like a great buying opportunity. Every future crash looks like a risk. And that's the important thing to remember, that we're always scared about the crashes in the future. We look back and wish we had bought more than the past crushes. 

Bryce: [00:30:47] That's it. 

Alec: [00:30:48] That's. That's an important thing to think of. That is. 

Bryce: [00:30:51] Great way to end. So a reminder that there is plenty of content to help me navigate this tricky time. Across the Equity Mates Media Network, there's investing experts sharing their insights on Equity Mates Investing podcast, which is our flagship show that Ren and I host of course get started investing is this one you're in good company hosted by Maddie and Sophia are unpacking their journey and markets as they go. The boys over at Canadian economist Thomas and Adam continue to unpack the big business stories and macroeconomic stories, interest rates, house prices, you name it. There are they're chatting about it. The Dive, which is our latest show in the network, we unpack one big business story each episode three times a week to give you some of the context around the news headlines. Crypto Curious is tackling everything that's going on in crypto markets at the moment. They're definitely not being spared either. And talk money to me, all things personal finance, chatting, individual stocks and speaking to experts as well. So, so much happening head to Equity Mates dot com to find out more information on all of those shows. They've all got social accounts as two way so make sure you're following those and we'll always appreciate if you could give us a five star and review on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify, which now lets you rate the shows as always ran. It's great to chat stocks. Exciting times ahead. Stick around for next week as we continue to unpack what's going on in markets. 

Alec: [00:32:23] Sounds good.