Expert: Jon Erlichman – We hope he Tweets this episode…

Bryce: [00:00:15] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast that follows our journey of investing. Whether you're an absolute beginner or approaching Warren Buffett status, our aim is to help break down your barriers from beginning to dividend. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy, Ren. How are you? 

Alec: [00:00:31] I'm very good, Bryce. I'm very excited for this interview. I am somewhat inspired because this is a guy that we've been following for a long time and we may have tried to borrow a thing or two from his social media strategy because he's best in class. So I'm very excited to pick his brains today. 

Bryce: [00:00:47] Absolutely. It is our pleasure to welcome to the Equity Mates studio all the way from Canada. Jon Erlichman. Jon, Welcome. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:00:54] Bryce, Alec it's a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be with you. 

Bryce: [00:00:58] So Jon is a correspondent and anchor for CTV National News, Canada's most watched nightly newscast and a senior anchor for Bloomberg Markets. But how we know, Jon, is as one of the most effective financed communicators on social media. If you don't follow him on Twitter, you must. And we've just recently come across his tik tok, so we would suggest heading over to that as well. There's a lot of great stuff coming out of there. But as our friend said, Jon, your Twitter has been where we've been really following you over the last few years. And it's it's truly an enjoyment. 

Alec: [00:01:33] So yeah, yeah, we've learnt a lot. We want to understand the process because you have more facts than anyone else on social media. So we want to understand that. But before we get to that, we want to go back to the start of your investing journey. It's where we like to start all of these interviews and ask you about your very first investment. We find there's generally a good story or a good lesson that comes out of it. So to kick us off today, can you tell us the story of your first investment? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:01:58] Okay. Well, I've I've been in this finance world for a long time, so I'm going to date myself here. But the first one that I really remember and I know sometimes on the podcast, people skip over the, you know, whatever you were doing with some first investment when you're, let's say, 15 or so. So I'm going to go to the Internet boom, which was followed by a bust. And I remember getting really excited about a number of Internet related plays, but there was one in particular called Excite at Home, and there was a certain amount of momentum and FOMO that was bubbling up, and there was something about Excite at home that got me excited. And there might not be anybody who remembers Excite at home. They probably remember Pets.com, but Excite at home went the way of Pets.com. They had what felt like a beautiful strategy on owning their piece of the Internet landscape and broadband Internet, and they got excited to build it out with more media, and it started feeling like the next AOL. Again, I told you, I'm dating myself here and I could not stay away from this stock. And it was so hot and I felt like I was missing out in a big way if I didn't get it. And so I got in. And boy, as soon as that happened, I was trying as fast as I could to get out. There was a reason you don't hear about Excite at home. This is what happens in these melt up situations. They can be exciting, but sometimes you can be left holding the bag. So that was that was the one that really stands out to me going back. 

Bryce: [00:03:40] So, Jon, you mentioned you've been in the finance space for for a number of years. So can you take us back to the beginning? How did you get into business journalism? What excites you about the markets and sort of how do you get to your point at Bloomberg today? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:03:55] Well, when I was starting my career, I have a background in economics and I was always interested in media and television. And it just so happened that the channel that I work for now, I've had a long career. My channel now is partners with Bloomberg, and back then it was just a licence, a licence for a new financial television channel in Canada. So very much a start up. I'm coming out of school and thinking, okay, well, I've got this economics degree. If I if I go into the world of finance, maybe my dad will approve of a TV career if it's about boring business. And so I, I went down that road and I took the lowest job that was available. And I really loved it because for me, it allowed for me to stay close to the markets and learn. You know, your podcast is all about learning and keeping things simple, too. I mean, that's the thing that I love about what you guys do is you try to take all of that Wall Street nonsense out of the equation, and I believe very much in that. And so from my earliest days, that's what we were doing. I mean, back then, it was certainly not as robust as it is today. People can literally with one click. Get up to speed pretty quickly on how the financial markets work. Back then we were really for the first time for some people being that gateway into the world of investing. And it was at a time I mean, I mentioned that first investment site at home. It was at a time when there was huge interest in the markets because the Internet bubble doing trading, you know, similar themes that we're seeing again today. But it gave us a lot of momentum to launch a channel. And I like that. And I like I like the Start-Up mentality, even though I've worked a lot in legacy media, did that that first job of launching the channel eventually made My Way to New York work with Bloomberg for their programming in New York. We had great inroads in following what happened in the world of technology. Bloomberg had some great foresight to see during the 2008 financial crisis that people were still wanting to be inspired and look for opportunity in what was candidly a lousy market. And they put a flag in San Francisco well before we saw the IPO, Facebook, and that was a great experience, too. So I love to be creative. I love following business in the markets and, and really that's what led me down this path.

Alec: [00:06:33] MM Yeah. Your career has really spanned some key, key moments in, I guess, Wall Street history, you know, starting post the, the tech bubble bursting and then being in New York during the GFC and then being in San Francisco in those early 2010 heady tech days. You've you've covered a lot and I'm sure you've learnt a lot that we want to really cover in this interview. But we want to start with social media because as I said, it's where we first came across you and we genuinely do think you're one of the most effective communicators of finance information online. We struggle to fit a lot in the 280 characters of a tweet, but you seem to use stats to to really tell tell a story or tell a narrative. So how do you approach social media? And I guess what was the insight that got you onto this strategy and started it all? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:07:25] Well, on Twitter, one of the things that I was doing, especially back in the I guess, the first few years of a lot of the technology companies that we're covering these days, Metta, formerly Facebook, for example, let's say Twitter after they went public. I was covering a lot of the the results for these companies. There was such explosive growth that I really wanted to chart this and actually a shout out to one of my former colleagues, Corey Jonson, who I work with in San Francisco. And he always had these wonderful spreadsheets at his desk which were tracking what was happening in all the quarter over quarter performance for these companies, and he'd work it into his television conversation. The growth was so astonishing with these businesses that I felt like being able to show people that progression would speak volumes. It would be more powerful than actually sharing information in a single tweet. And so that's probably the infancy of me working with data and numbers and of course, with social media. I mean, what's the goal? There's all sorts of goals, I suppose, but if you can get into a rhythm and you feel like people are benefiting from what you're doing and they feel good about that, typically you feel good about that, too. And as I said before, like same as you guys, at the core of what I do, I want to keep things simple. I want to have a message that is strong and impactful and there are constraints within Twitter. So that was really the infancy of it. And then there was just kind of an evolution from there. And there is a certain beauty that I've always appreciated with Twitter on the restrictions of keeping it simple. Some of them are parallel to what I work primarily in financial television. We have things like, you know, there are character limits on information. You can put on a screen and call these things banners at the bottom. Right. What, what three words can you put it that are going to tell somebody at home? At the core what you're talking about. So I actually do think a lot about that. And I love the I love the creativity that goes into keeping things simple because one of my observations over the years, and I will call it a criticism of the financial community, is I just think they make things too complicated. Now, in 2022, we have a lot of versions of the financial world, and I think it's a lot more accessible than it was when I was starting out. But I've never understood why the language in the stories had to become so complicated. At the end of the day, it feels to me like if you make language or communication a little more complicated, it's almost like you're you're creating a bit of a barrier, maybe if you're in the industry. You want to sound smarter or be more protected from competition. Sometimes it comes down to language or making things sound more complicated than they are. So I always love that as something to to pursue within a medium like television. But then I wanted to bring it to Twitter. The thing is that when you are a journalist, I don't believe in taking sides. Obviously, we we see a lot of opinions on social media, but I've always felt that I'm there to, as best as possible, report the facts. And I always felt a certain safety and comfort in numbers because numbers are numbers. You can't twist a revenue number. Yeah, that was that was that was sort of at the root of Twitter. 

Bryce: [00:11:04] So we often speculate just how big your research team is because you pump out so much content. And, you know, one of my favourite is where you'll say, you know, this time 30 years ago, Nintendo, you know, launched the whatever console or whatever it may be, and there's some little jif about it or whatnot. But where do you get all your content from? Asking for a friend? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:11:32] Me and my research team of my Goldendoodle. Maybe he and my two daughters know it's so it's it is just me. But but the thing is that I think you just get you get into routines and you find out what what feels like, what your audience wants, and then it just comes very naturally, you know? I mean, you guys are doing a lot of stuff. And how do you pump out all these podcasts? Do you do this? Do you just do? And the historical stuff, I felt it allowed to have a landing spot for your voice. I always felt, too, that you could you could treat platforms, especially like Twitter, a little differently than how some people use it. You know, some people use it as a constant, you know, mechanism for whatever you want to say at that moment or whatever you want to react to. I tend to think, though, that people consume content on Twitter the same way that they consume content on the Internet, or when they're watching television or listen to the to a podcast. I really wanted a certain amount of consistency to what I was saying, and I didn't want it to feel frantic. You know, Twitter can be a very chaotic place. And I don't think I don't think it always needs to be. Yeah. So going back and looking at those stats were fun and it informs everything I do. I think what we're seeing right now, even in the markets today, history is constantly repeating itself and also in entrepreneurial journeys. There are there are a lot of similarities. And I think that's one of the beauties of social media, is that if if I can find a positive light for some of these historical data points that inspires the next generation of entrepreneurs, to me, that's a win. That's that's so exciting, you know, because especially I mean, it's different than the markets, but the idea of being an entrepreneur, I feel we've never had a moment in history where you've been able to share your entrepreneurial journeys as easily as you can today, because entrepreneurship is a very lonely experience. I think a lot of times people are looking for someone to talk to, you know, and can you talk to your Start-Up employees or your investors or your partners or your customers about your your loneliness? I think it's it's sometimes a bit scary to do that. And yet we are, as a society, so impressed or inspired by entrepreneurs who could tough it out because it's so hard. I really found that those historical data points were really powerful. And in that message to most of the time it feels like there is a positive message that's that shines through there and that's usually what I'm going for.

Alec: [00:14:31] Yeah. Yeah. I love that. You mentioned there that you see echoes from the past and past markets in today's markets. And I would love to sort of pick up on that and explore that because you have been there for some of the key finance stories of the past ten, 20 years. Being in New York during the GFC must have just been a once in a lifetime shock I guess. And then two years later, being in Silicon Valley and saying all this optimism with, you know, the Facebook and Twitter, IPO's and the like must have just been the complete opposite. So I guess what have you learnt from being at those sort of key moments of the last decade and has it changed or has it informed how you. You're you're investing today. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:15:16] Well, in terms of how I view where we go as a society. Absolutely. I remember during the financial crisis, I was often reporting from the New York Stock Exchange for for Bloomberg and to the extremes of the markets in those turbulent times were in many ways just unbelievable. There is a point where you or we just become numb to it. You know, that was a moment where people just it was it was a very dark time. People didn't quite know there was a lot of action happening. Governments, central banks, everybody trying to figure out how do we deal with this thing. And the thing about the market is this is like real time mechanism. It doesn't quite know what to do in those extremes. But in those extremes, like those are the moments. Those are the moments. Right. And they don't come all the time. And I think you're right. I think that even if I can speak about our Bloomberg experience, you know, people who had seen their investment portfolios take huge hits, too, like they did welcome some positive news. And it was at a chapter where because of some of those actions, providing a lot of stimulus and trying to get things back on track, it actually provided a bit of a starter there for some of those technology start-ups at that time because, you know, going back to when I started my career and the Internet bust, I mean, there were some pretty dry, lonely years in Silicon Valley. But one could argue that the financial crisis in 2008 that opened the door for tech to shine. And, you know, right now you think about going through COVID, same kind of I mean, totally different situation, but feels unprecedented. Governments are trying to react on the fly, figure out policies minute by minute, central bankers as well. And here we are trying to figure out where things are going to go now after this massive influx of capital. And I don't think anybody quite knows. But but you do know that there are. Massive storylines that are forming in these moments. Or they are they are just that. They are moments that you look back at and you know that in ten years there's going to be a lot to look back on. And so it's it's good to sort of take stake what's of what's happening right now and try to figure out what all this is going to mean for where we are a decade out. Mm hmm. 

Bryce: [00:17:55] Well, I want to unpack that a little bit further, Jon, but before we do, we're just going to take a very short break to hear from our sponsors. Jon, as Ren said, you've you've been through a couple of the major sort of market cycles now. Ren and I, I think we have experienced the GFC right at the start. That was when we were in high school. 

Alec: [00:18:16] I wasn't investing. 

Bryce: [00:18:18] Ren wasn't in markets, I was and I kind of remember it and but you know, it was very early on in our investing journey. So, you know, we've just seen overnight as well that the US has raised interest rates by about half a percentage point, which I don't think they've done it since 2000 or thereabouts. We've got the the turmoil happening over in Ukraine. We've got the COVID lockdowns in in China. So there's a there's a lot going on. You mentioned key headlines there. So interested to hear your thoughts on how the current sort of market situation compares to, say, the exuberance and melt up in to the 2000 tech crisis or perhaps the JSE, GFC and and how you or what advice you would give to new investors at the moment who are feeling a bit concerned about the whole situation. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:19:10] Well, let's start with the Internet boom and bust. And last year, I think this this came up a lot. People were trying to figure out, are there a lot of comparables? I don't know about you guys, but I felt like most people said it's different this time that these companies are better financial shape, they're in better fighting shape. And we're seeing in real time when the market mood changes and it just changes. And it's pretty it's pretty amazing. Like the kids who had the coolest party can't get anybody to come anymore. You know, a lot of your investment professional guests. We'll talk about some of those key metrics that that do matter. And they do matter when you're trying to analyse a company. And so when people when I ask a lot of my guests these questions to every day, which is after really violent selling in stories or investments that people just couldn't get enough of a year ago, you know, could that continue? And they said, well, of course, look at look at what these companies are still worth today and look at what this other stuff is worth in the market that had been unloved for so long and seems to be well-placed for an environment where commodity prices are going to stay elevated for who knows how long, and especially if we've got an economy that is. I mean, we didn't even get a I don't know about you guys in Australia, but they didn't really feel like we got those Roaring Twenties that everybody was hoping for coming out of the worst and just kind of went into this. Oh yeah. And, and, and doesn't really feel that great for sort of, you know, high growth companies right now. I still think, though, and again, I'm not someone who provides investment advice. I do think that because the market can swing so aggressively in both directions, it's not going to it's not a surprise anyone to highlight that we probably got way too ahead of ourselves in our in our views on some companies. But we have since gone pretty far in the other direction with some of these companies. And I do feel like having explored some of those storylines of Internet related companies more than two decades ago, it really didn't have much going on. There are a lot of companies that actually have had tremendous traction. So, for example, we'll have to we'll really have to stress test over the next couple of years. For example, online activity, e commerce, mobility and the ability the companies that seem to be getting such a lift because we were all stuck at home and spending so much time online. You know, the common narrative of late has been everybody's getting back out again and those businesses are going to tank. Well, I'm not sure about that. I think habits are habits, especially if you can take those habits of being online and out in the world with you all the time. I mean, out in the world. But like once people have gone on a couple of cycles of trips, they're kind of back to being at home and maybe doing some of the things they were actually doing ironically during the pandemic. Yeah, there's that part of it. I think the 2008 financial crisis, what what is the common thread with today is I just think about policy more than anything. Again governments, central banks having to move quickly, doing what they thought was right and in retrospect seem like the right things to do. But there are ramifications from that. So that to me is one of the the most important parallels. And what's what's even more interesting is that some of those policies were so extensive. Leave the used during the COVID 19 pandemic. You have central bankers who like going back to that playbook, right? Like, okay, quantity. We learnt our lesson quantity. Let's just let's do that. And now we've got a situation here where we've kind of created this inflation monster and we'll see what happens from that. But I am look, I am so excited by technology. I always have been. I think the level of excitement and innovation that we are seeing with blockchain related projects right now is truly remarkable. And a lot of times, especially in a downturn, it just gets kind of thrown out as another hype story. That to me will be probably one of the most important storylines to watch over the next 5 to 10 years. I mean, if you're, you know, there are true believers and some of what they see unfolding seems very real. But of course, when there's kind of a melt up of everything, there's also a lot of nonsense there. So we're going to have to kind of wipe through that. But we know that during the Internet bubble, we got an Amazon, we got a few others and get excited. Oh, now is that that was my best move there. But we got an Amazon and we've got a few others. 

Alec: [00:24:18] So yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an exciting time to be an investor. You got to really dig in and and do the work and hopefully find some really exciting opportunities. We've spoken a lot about the US. You're based in Canada, here in Australia, you know, we're pretty resource rich country and you know, commodity prices going high are good for us. I'm going to assume the same thing in Canada. Pretty resource rich commodity prices going up is good for Canada. Is that am I am I right? How's Canada going at the moment?

Jon Erlichman: [00:24:49] Well, I don't know about you, but I feel like Canada is conflicted. You have a really significant push, especially by the federal government here, to think about a transition to a greener economy. And they have been very supportive of those policies. It's actually, in many ways a significant point of tension with our commodities industry, which you're absolutely right. When you look at what drives an economy of a country like Canada, it is it is that commodity story. But there has long been a divide and in a desire, it feels like, to shift away from that as an economy. Right now, we're in a situation that feels a little bit unsettled on that front. You know, the commodities industry is doing a lot of heavy lifting. The government would like to see other industries emerge, but what are those industries? Obviously, there is a growing technology component to this economy here, but it's still young and historically it's more mixed results when it comes to building these Home-Grown champions. You've got companies like Shopify that are doing well, but sometimes Canada's described as a branch plant economy. You know, it's a place where other businesses can come and and set up shop, you know, candidly what feels like the biggest business outside of commodities right now. And I know I know you guys see this in Australia. I mean, the real estate story you've got you've got a nation of people going back to the financial crisis. Traditionally, there was a lot of personal prudence when it came to something like debt. Debt was a dirty word. And I think people took pride in trying to keep their debt low. But rates were so low for so long. And Canada's economy, especially during the financial crisis 2008, navigated relatively well. But it was really hard for people not to see the value in taking cheap money and putting it to work in the form of a large mortgage and betting on real estate, investing in real estate. And it was just a it was a blockbuster trade. It was a blockbuster investment for people. And now in terms of G7 countries, Canadians are holding an awful lot of debt. And I think that now that we've got this interest rate cycle, we're all we're all really talking about right now is cutting interest rates back where they were before COVID 19. When we drop them to zero overnight, it's really all we're talking about. Like, okay, we had a big party we got to clean up after the party. And, you know, it's a huge source of tension for global markets right now. And I think it's in part because we have gotten pretty fixated on easy money. And so I know we're I know we're seeing that struggle play out in the equity markets each day and certainly in the fixed income world. But it is also something that is probably going to complicate housing markets, not just here in Canada, but it is a big storyline here here in Canada as well. 

Bryce: [00:28:02] Which on. We have a bit of a sort of slow underground movement here. 

Alec: [00:28:07] Can we call it a campaign? 

Bryce: [00:28:08] A campaign rally going that we we're frustrated that many brokerage platforms here in Australia are opening up the world of investing there, you know, providing us with access to the New Zealand markets, the US market. But they're never giving us access, access to the Canadian stock market. So we're on a bit of a push here to try to make that happen because there's some amazing companies listed over in Canada that we otherwise don't get access to. So if there's some way you can help us on. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:28:40] That, can. 

Alec: [00:28:42] Keep banging that drum because, you know, you mentioned some there and some are listed in the US obviously to Shopify as are Restaurant Brands International, but there are companies that are listed in Canada that we kind of access to, you know, the constellation softwares of the world boom, global stories that we we want to we want to have the choice. 

Bryce: [00:29:01] Watching from afar, literally a long way away. But. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:29:04] You know, you can always dress up as one of those dapper Mounties and maybe you'll get somebody whose attention to, you know, competence is important, though, like that is a theme. You do see more of it today in Canada than when I was growing up. I think the Internet to a certain degree has enabled that. We all get to sort of see what other people are doing and there is a certain amount of confidence that comes with that. And so that that is nice to see that there's a there's a pretty thriving technology community here as well. Shopify is a good example where you have a founder who he likes being here. He is confident and he is building business because that's what he wants to do. And that challenge for some people to step into the world of entrepreneurship, it's not for everyone, but there are a lot of people who feel that they might have inside of them, but they're not sure if they can quite get there. And I think that's why you have a lot of these role models out there, Elon Musk, etc.. But also culturally, depending on where you are from, you know, Canadians are generally a little more modest. I think when they can see these Home-Grown champions, that's exciting. That's exciting for people. It makes them feel like they can go out and build something. And I think all economies around the world benefit if their citizens do want to build and grow as opposed to sell to someone or work for a foreign company. I think I mean, I think it's a good thing for all countries, whether it's Australia, Canada, the US, and we certainly see it in the US all the time, just the ability for those entrepreneurs to grow those businesses and an influence around the world. It's it's pretty remarkable. 

Alec: [00:30:45] See, Australia is probably a step behind. We've we've got some of those global businesses. Atlassian comes to mind Canva, but a lot of them still go to the States. The next the next step in Australia's journey is similar to the Shopify is to to have them build these global companies headquartered down under here. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:31:06] Canva is such an amazing story. I mean wow. You know, it's it is it is it is truly remarkable. That's a that's that's a great one. 

Bryce: [00:31:15] Yeah. Equity Mates will be next. 

Alec: [00:31:20] Will we stay in Australia? That's the question. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:31:24] They're going to ask. 

Bryce: [00:31:26] So Jon, before we get to the final three questions to close out the interview, we've we've got to touch on some of the amazing people that you've interviewed, a lot of them you know, we admire as well. You've had the pleasure of interviewing some of the biggest CEOs, including Disney's Bob Iger and IFC's Barry Diller. And then, of course, on the investment side, you've spoken with David Einhorn and Michael Burry. What have you kind of learnt? What have been some of your biggest takeaways from speaking to these people? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:31:54] Well, I think that leaders and investors have different qualities and can have success with very different personalities. Bob Iger at Disney, you know, he is someone who had a very long career before he stepped into that CEO role, and he'd be the first to tell you. And he's spoken extensively about the questions he had. Can I lead? But when you get that shot and you use that experience, you've got and you listen to the people around you, but you also have enough confidence to take these bold steps. I did see that in him. And I think that while there are some acquisitions that they didn't make, which we could talk about that, too, but the fact that when he first stepped into that job, that there was almost a crisis immediately with Pixar and the tension between Steve Jobs and Disney at that point, I mean, it was palpable. That was a point where Iger had to make a decision and he made a bold one very early on in his tenure. And you almost feel like that gave him a certain sense of confidence that he. You keep doing deals. So we look back and we're like, Wow, you know, Disney. They bought Pixar and they bought Marvel and they bought Lucasfilm and they did this deal for Fox, which then helped to launch Disney plus as a streaming service. That ability to lead inspire your team, have that confidence. I think that's very much something that I noticed with him, with investors like David Einhorn, Michael Berry and others. They have the kind of the James Dean element. It's sort of this outsiders kind of viewpoint. So the confidence, but still the the outsider. I remember when we did an interview with Michael Barry, you know, he he's based not too far from Apple headquarters there, but it feels like he's a world away from Silicon Valley just working in a very, very simple, from what I can recall, cluttered office and kind of speaks to him. We talked about the isolation of an entrepreneur. Like sometimes you just feel like you're you're out there on your own island and you just got to keep going and believe in yourself. I think with some of those outsized investors, there is a certain amount of that, right. Because and you see it right now in the markets, everybody's sold off everything that they loved before. Now they hate it now. Everybody out there is sort of painting the picture, what the world will look like for the next five or six years. And they're saying, buy this, buy that, do this. And they're lemmings right now. They might be right. They might be right. But consensus is easy. Going outside of that is uncomfortable. And there's only a you know, there's a select few that feel perfectly fine being there. So confidence, having conviction, these are some of the things I've noticed, whether it's a CEO or it's an investor. Those, those things definitely shine through for sure. Mm mm. 

Bryce: [00:35:02] Well, it's been a really enjoyable interview, Jon. We, we almost have run out of time. So I just want to thank you firstly for your time and we can't talk about all your social media without giving a plug. So if you are interested in following Jon his handle on all social platforms, it's just Jon Erlichman. Sorry, that's j0nrli am I and we'll put the links in our show. 

Alec: [00:35:29] Jon's name will also be on this episode. Sure. So it'll be hard to get the spelling wrong. 

Bryce: [00:35:35] So go and check those out. And yeah, Jon, we thank you for your time. But we do finish with three questions for all of our guests. So let's crack in. 

Alec: [00:35:43] So, Jon, the first question is, do you have any books that you consider a must read? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:35:47] Well, you know, it's funny that the most recent book that I read, you guys did something with Bill Browder recently. 

Bryce: [00:35:54] I remember we spoken to him. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:35:56] I was just going through freezing order. That was I mean, that's the most recent thing I, I just chewed through, which was quite a thriller. But, you know, right now, something that I just pulled out that I want to read again is Wall Street A History by Charles Geist, which, as I talked about, history repeating itself. We're talking about the last two decades. But it is it is a wonderfully detailed book on so many of those chapters where finance is finance and business is business and entrepreneurs are entrepreneurs. Just a different point in our history, wonderfully detailed and early on in Corbett, I was wanting to go back and learn about what was happening 100 years ago when they were dealing with a pandemic, you know, and there was a lot of great readings. And now that we're going through these unsettling waters, I literally just pulled out Wall Street history by Charles Geist again. So I'm going to crack that again. It is a great way to go back in history and pick up a few nuggets.

Alec: [00:36:58] The second question, forget valuation. Forget it as an investment today or any day, just purely based on what the company is and what it does. What's the best company you've ever come across? 

Jon Erlichman: [00:37:09] Well, I'm going to single out Netflix. You know, I don't know that they are the best company, but I did have the opportunity to watch them grow and watch them navigate some real bumps in the road, some highly publicised marketing missteps, moments where it felt like if it had gone slightly different, they wouldn't even be here today. And this is after those early years where and you can go back and read all about that if you want to. It wasn't clear that they were going to survive Blockbuster's efforts to stop their growth. So what's amazing to me about Netflix is that and we spent a lot of time talking about confidence and conviction, the fact that they were so confident about where the market was going that they. Would do things that each and every day were in the headlines, not just in technology, but on Wall Street and in Hollywood. They're dealing with press in three massive media buckets with scepticism is pie. And they went with the original strategy. You know, they did the deal with Disney. And now they are at what feels like another important moment where everyone says they're in bad shape. Hmm. But I'll tell you, the DNA of that company is very interesting, in my opinion. They really thought differently about so many things. Human resources. I mean, you guys know this, but for your audience, go look online at some of those early philosophies they had on building a business and employees and empowering employees. And, you know, should you have vacation days or not like that? That was really interesting stuff for that business that a lot of people have, have, have brought on. And there is still a founder involved. I mean, Reed Hastings is there now. Ted Sarandos, who's really taken a larger role and helped with the Hollywood strategy in a massive way, has taken on a larger role. But when founders are still there, you know, it's always fascinating. I mean, I know you're looking for just one. I'll slip in another. I mean, it's not not not in the same way, but just now that I'm thinking about it, you know, because I covered the Facebook IPO and that was such a big moment there. They're they're they're shifting the business around. They're betting on mobile. They're buying Instagram. Mark Zuckerberg is literally ripping out desk tops from the office so that the team is completely focussed on mobile. Right. And right now, same thing like sentiment is sour and there is high scepticism on all of their metaverse spending. And I'm only highlighting these stories because again, founders are still involved. They've been through these kind of valleys before. And I'm telling you, it's going to be really interesting to watch both of those names over the next five years. Can Netflix regain its momentum? If Mark Zuckerberg has had the ability to shift his business in the past and sees a future that not everyone believes in yet, can he get there too? I mean, it's going to be fun to follow this. 

Alec: [00:40:25] ALL Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And I think the thing is, we look back on some of these stories and we think they were preordained. We think that, you know, the world was going to streaming and, you know, that the shift to mobile was just going to happen. And I think if especially with matter if they're successful with establishing the metaverse, I think it's going to be really important for me and everyone listening, I guess, to remember how sceptical the world was at this point and how uncertain thank you it was. Yeah, because I am sceptical at the moment and if he can pull it off and if you can convince me then I need to remember that. Yeah, but look Jon, we want to we want to say a massive thank you. This has been great. We could have spoken for a lot longer, but we always like to end with this. The same final question. If you think back to your younger self loading up on those excite at home sheds in the middle of the tech bubble, what advice would you give to your younger self?

Jon Erlichman: [00:41:28] Just go for it. Don't worry about what people say and think about what it is you really want to do and make sure that's always on a piece of paper with you when you go home every night, you know, because it is easy to get caught up in what you're doing or what you feel you should be doing. And a lot of good can come from that. But trying to remember what that thing you really wanted to do and feeling like you can just do it. And it's not an issue. It's not an issue. If that's what you want to do, do it. I think that's something that we all have to keep in mind. And you know what? I'm still writing down stuff on notes every day about what I want to do. Keep those notes close and keep and keep doing the things that you really want to do. Because why not? 

Bryce: [00:42:20] An inspiring way to finish, Jon. And that's, you know, how we certainly feel watching you on Tik Tok and social media inspired about business and entrepreneurship and markets. So thank you for, um, you know, helping us on our investing journey over the last couple of years. And we look forward to continuing following your journey in markets and in journalism as well. So thank you so much. I know our audience would have got a a lot of enjoyment and value from that interview. So we appreciate your time. 

Jon Erlichman: [00:42:47] Thank you. Thank you to both of you. And congratulations on what has been a great podcast journey, too. It's been wonderful to listen to them and it's been great to be with you today. 

Alec: [00:42:56] Thanks, Jon.