Don’t just invest, be invested | Patrice Newell

Maddy: [00:00:38] Hello and welcome to You're In Good Company, a podcast that makes investing accessible for everyone. I'm Maddy Guest and as always, I'm in some very good company with my co-host, Sophie Dicker.

Sophie: [00:00:49] Hello, Maddy Guest. How are we today and this fine day? 

Maddy: [00:00:53] We are good. We are so excited because we are chatting to Patrice, Patrice Newell, who has recently founded an investing app in the Sustainability Space Fascists or much interesting experiences in this area. And I just felt so inspired and excited after chatting to her. 

Sophie: [00:01:11] I feel like doing some research on Patrice, says an Australian story on her. She's done for the day. What hasn't it is like so much about on the internet. So if you're listening to this and you're scrolling on your phone, do a quick Google because honestly, this conversation is great, but maybe I'll let you take it away with an introduction.

Maddy: [00:01:28] Well, without further ado, today we are excited to be joined by Patrice Newell, an Aboriginal Australian with a PhD in alternative energy and an order of Australia for services to agriculture and the environment. Patrice has hosted. The Today Show is a sustainable farmer, a bestselling author and environmental advocate, and now the co-founder of Koala, an investment app to help people invest directly in companies that take climate change and social equity seriously. Patrice, thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to You're In Good Company. 

Patrice: [00:02:02] Hey, pleasure. Maddy, Sophie, good to be here. 

Sophie: [00:02:05] Patrice, we always start the episode in the same way by asking, What's the best thing that has happened to you in the past seven days? 

Patrice: [00:02:12] Well, that's easy waking up this morning. I go to bed every night thinking, you know, you never know when the end is coming and when you wake up. I'm eternally grateful. So the best thing was waking up and knowing I was going to be talking to you. Every day is a good day. Being alive is a good day.

Maddy: [00:02:30] That's very kind and a great attitude to have. I like it portrays if you could have dinner with anyone, who would it be and why? 

Patrice: [00:02:38] Well, I have often reflected I wouldn't mind having dinner with my younger self. Right. The wise in the young or the older and the young. I know I said a few important things to that younger person. And I used to say Gloria Steinem was one who as a feminist, I followed all my life and she's branched out and talked about the big picture where we've all learnt from her, her ideas, discussions, things she's brought to us to consider, but also her personal journey. You know, she never learnt how to drive, you know, she lived through the 20th century into the 21st and never, never drove. She was a traveller from a young age because of her father. And I just think making a commitment to social justice and all that and an equality for gender equality was, you know, a fabulous commitment to a big life. So I'd say Gloria Steinem, I'd put her probably at the top of my list.

Sophie: [00:03:41] Yeah. I feel like she would have had an incredible personality, someone that would just, you know, you'd feel very attracted to if she had such a diverse cohort of friends and family, etc.. Now we are definitely investing related. So swapping it to a company, if you could be a stock or company or who would you be and why? 

Patrice: [00:03:58] Well, you're talking to someone here who did not grow up investing. And so that is easy because it has to be koala, because I feel that I'm sorry, but it's so obvious. 

Maddy: [00:04:12] I mean, you are a koala you have found. Yeah. 

Patrice: [00:04:15] Yes. And I'm proud of it. And it is something it's like creating something that you wish you had access to when you were younger. 

Maddy: [00:04:23] Well, I'm looking forward to getting much more into what you guys have built at Koala in a little bit. But before we do, I want to take a little bit of a step back because you have had a very varied and quite incredible career that I think a lot of our listeners will be really keen to learn more about. So from working at the service to moving into sustainable farming and now launching your very own business, can you tell us about a particular experience or challenge that you sort of confronted that took you by surprise, that I guess you never would have imagined that you could have come across had you not experienced it yourself? 

Patrice: [00:04:59] I've. I feel for young people today because, you know, they still get asked, what do you want to do when you grow up? You know, you hardly ever grow up. You know, you grow over time. You don't grow up is one thing. So, so long as you are interested in always growing and tuning into relationships because it's people that give you opportunities. I was going to be a nurse. I think I was meant to be a nurse. And the cyclone hit Darwin. They wiped out the hospital. I couldn't go. I started modelling. I had a modelling career and then in those days they were not supermodels and it just sort of happened and it was a job. I mean, there were married models because everyone married young, but there weren't models with babies back in my day. But it did learn. People think modelling, you know, everyone's really nice to you and says lovely things is quite the opposite actually. It really taught me to be tough. So, you know, you bums too big and your hair is this. And what did you drink too much last night? Oh, look, you've got a pimple there. There's a lot of negativity around that profession. And it taught me to stand firm and not be impacted by negative thoughts. It toughened me. And the other thing is, people who have said to me now, Oh, why are you doing Kuala now? Why move into the finance sector? Why go into investing? And I say, Why not? Because you girls, you will have a lot of careers in your life. And I think that is the great beauty. And that's why feminism has been a great bonus to us, because we can do all the different things. You might be, you know, sitting there this morning thinking, Oh, I'd love to be a farmer or I'd like to be an astronaut or whatever you may want to be secretly that you don't tell people. And guess what? You can do it later on if you really want to. So I didn't plan any of it. Okay? I didn't plan one thing. I just had an opportunity and I thought, oh, interesting. I probably had a fantasy of writing books. Maybe I had a fantasy when I was young about that.

Sophie: [00:07:04] Well, then you did go write a book. We read many books and you've also written a PHC. I was going to say I love it. We ask what the lesson is, the toughest lesson that you've learnt, and instead of being like, you know, it's the pay day, which I'm sure would have been very challenging, you've turned to modelling, so it's always interesting when chatting to people about the challenges they've overcome. I guess turning to quality and also investing. I mean are you, are you new to investing in yourself? Like has koala been this kind of jump to investing? And if so, have you made any investing decisions that have been really instrumental to your investing journey thus far? 

Patrice: [00:07:40] Well, let me say that I grew up in a household with no money. Every cent counted, every penny counted. And we never discussed money except one very important thing, and that is to live within your means. And I've carried that and I carry that today. I carry that in koala keeping the business of koala functioning and everything all my own personal stories. Now, we didn't use the word investing. We used the word saving. We were saving. But part of what I was taught subliminally, just because there wasn't much money you paid for what you had to pay for. You had a job, you got some money, you paid for the things you must pay for food and fuel, etc. And then you always saved some. And then the investment component was in an apartment. So that was my first investment and I did not have one friend who ever invested in shares. It was never a conversation. I had no family, no one, no one that had any, any experience. And I was one of them when I was younger, I was one of the first people to buy an apartment. I didn't have any of my friends who didn't own an apartment because most people, since I've got older, have found that they learnt through their parents and often their mother too. That's another thing. It's been very interesting. They've been quietly at home, you know, reading the Financial Review, looking at the finance pages and educating themselves and having a few conversations with their children. 

Maddy: [00:09:15] I think we're very conscious when we do this podcast and have these conversations that I guess, number one, to be in a position where you actually are physically able to invest is quite a privilege. Like not everyone has sufficient money that's coming in and going out to actually be able to put that money aside and put it away for the long term comfortable that they're not going to not need to access it any time soon. What I would sort of layer on to that is we're so lucky today that investing is more accessible through things like Koala and the other products that we have now than it ever has been before. Like, you know, not long ago you had to call your broker and they had to place the trades for you. And it was really expensive. And there were minimum trades of, you know, $5,000 plus. And now you can literally invest with $10, $100. And it's made it so much more accessible for people like us. I think we're so lucky that the conversation is changing technology. You know, it's really democratising and it's allowing more people, more opportunities to, like, grow their wealth and get involved. 

Patrice: [00:10:18] There are a lot of things people complain about in the modern world, you know, things we don't like. And the digital world, it's come upon us so fast. There's a lot to take on board, but it is one of the most remarkable things because the digital age has allowed us to participate in ways we've never participated before. And I can only say it is exciting. Yeah, it is exciting. And it doesn't take what it used to take in the past, you know, I have to save up. How do I know that broker's a good broker? Will I like them? Do I trust them? How does it work? You're not really in the system unless you're a sort of a semi professional or a professional. Whereas now with your phone being able to do it with your phone, you can quietly do it. I think that is a really important thing because even though we are having conversations about money now, it's very personal, it's very private, and no one shares everything. You know, people might tell a bit of things and exaggerate about circumstances, but when you can do it in the privacy of your own phone, you can feel it differently. And I think that is important. So for everybody that's a bit nervous. It's never done it before, but I think, why can't I have a portfolio, you know, for 30 years and have it grow? You know, why do rich people, they've been able to do it. They're connected that you can participate in something that really most people have not been able to participate in. I agree with you, Maddy. It's one of the great things about the digital age. 

Maddy: [00:11:53] So I'm excited to hear. Then how has it been sort of building Kuala Bay ethical investment off and I guess sort of what excites you the most about the ethical investment space? 

Patrice: [00:12:04] Well, one of the things I used to think, bearing in mind my co-founders have experience in investing so they don't come to companies and put that out there. Yeah. So it's not all of us who've never done it right. My co-founders are experienced in a lot of other things, completely different to me. But that's one of the good things about having a diverse group of people coming together to build something, having shares. Do you just want to share, you know? Do you just want something? No. We found that when we did our early research, when we were thinking about Kuala, people said, Oh, I don't want to be in the banks. You know, the Hayne report just happened and like no gambling, you know, none of that stuff facilitating gambling and everybody had an opinion about what they didn't want and that was important. And then of course you frame it in a climate emergency and then you've got whoa, is it going to add, is it going to be bad? Is it going to be part of this? And that led to a conversation about, you know, businesses are responsible. And will build the future economy. So it's all this movement of money that's building it. And we were really obsessed about the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals, those 17 goals. And so if we thought the portfolio is framed so that every company in it, so all those in the ETFs and the direct investments are analysed in relation to the 17 United Nations Sustainable Development Goals. So important things like gender equity, reducing poverty. Because every company has an impact in different areas. 

Sophie: [00:13:48] Yeah, I think it's kind of cool to have something almost anchored to a very well known type of goal. You know what we're taught about the sustainable development goals throughout uni, we talk about them at work, so when you are investing it's nice to be able to look towards something and say that's what that company is working towards if they are anchored to it. But I am interested because you did, you know, touch on the fact that sustainability really means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. So it can be quite difficult when you're talking about sustainability to kind of narrow down or always have the same opinion as someone else. What does sustainability and when you link it with investing mean to you? You know, what do you look at? 

Patrice: [00:14:29] Well, I go back to the original word that people use the definition. It's having growth without trashing the future for the next generation. You know, you don't use up all the resources. And for those of us that have been talking in the sustainability space for a long time, that it's not static. Well, you'd know that, right? Because in the very beginning, I remember when we just used to talk about the triple bottom line and have social conversations somewhere in the conversation, you know, it's come a long way, it's not over. And everybody joins the table and the conversation has their own pet issue and wants to include another component that they think is important. That's why those 17 goals, I think, tried to bring it together. Is it perfect? I don't know. People wanted the word soil on it. For instance, when they came up and had earth, but they didn't have the word soil. So I felt fungi were quite lost out in that discussion. Fungi are essential to soil and earth growth. So I had my own pet issues myself. So I think if you bring it back to the fundamentals. If a company is doing something and exploiting the resources that it needs to be successful, then it is not sustainable. That is over. We have a climate emergency because industrial capitalism has failed. It failed because it treated all the natural capital of the world. As for free. You got it for free. And here we are trying to reconcile it and retrofit it. Yeah, we've got a lot to learn. I think, you know, humans are creative. We can do it. But you got to make a commitment to doing it. That's the challenge. And, you know, we've been talking about climate change for so long now. There hasn't been a commitment. I was at a conference the other day and now a minister got up and said on 2020 When my child was born I suddenly realised I got 2020 and you suddenly realised you cared about the future because you had a child. I thought, Wow. Been in parliament for eight years and this is the thing. It takes commitment and people have their awakening through all sorts of reasons. But I do believe in the Inhumans. I think we've done some bad things. Our capacity to do good, though, is high. 

Maddy: [00:17:08] Well, we're going to talk more about how we as individuals can create an impact. But before we do, we are going to take a quick break from film. Petraeus. Before the break, we spoke about what sustainability means to you. And as a retail investor, sometimes it can be really overwhelming to try and sort of navigate your way through all of the information that is out there. You've got some incredible experience, particularly your farming experience. So I'm really interested to hear what you make of the current climate crisis. 

Patrice: [00:17:43] Besides being scary and emergency, the anxiety that still to this day, people don't take it as seriously as I think they should. The people in power don't. That I live in the Hunter Valley. Koala is formed in regional Australia. I feel like that deserves a pat on the back because for true sustainability and access you have to have good internet that is still not available in Australia, in regional Australia, maybe in towns. I personally need to be active in my life. I think koalas are probably even. See, I did try to get elected to Parliament back in 2007 on a climate change ticket and failed. Certainly ahead of its time in the conversation. We had not even signed the Kyoto Protocol back then. 

Maddy: [00:18:41] Do you think it was too early how our society was saying and talking about it? Do you feel like that was too early for you to get it? 

Patrice: [00:18:47] Completely the battle between the believers and the non-believers in science and the interpretation? And because Australia and at the time and now the coal sector and the problem with coal is there's two types of coal, metallurgical coal and thermal coal and people, you know, metallurgical coal for building steel and it are more, in my view, important resource needed until that new technology is actually built versus thermal coal, when we know that we can do renewable energy. But this commitment to exporting coal and for Australia to be part of that, in other words, and these crazy things that get said like we owe it to the world, you know, to export our coal so they can have an energy sector. No, we owe it to the world to share in creating a better global energy sector, not export our coal for our own wealth or the companies wealth. So in our way, you know, that's why waste is important in the climate change conversation, because energy is used as food waste. Every time I live on a farm, you grow things, you use energy, so you can't waste it because you've spent all this energy to grow it. If you trying to take it seriously, you cannot waste things. We can't pollute things. We have to just rein it in and be individually tuning into the importance of everything counting.

Sophie: [00:20:24] You said that, you know, Australia has said to the world we owe it to the world to export our coal and we are a really resource rich nation. So do you think that Australia could really lead the way and be, I guess a super power when it comes to renewables? 

Patrice: [00:20:40] I see our resource rich nation. I mean, are we the luckiest resource nation in the world? I mean, it's mind boggling, you know, with a democracy that really appears to function, even though we whinge about quite a lot of it, our capacity to be to really take on quality resource management. We have not done it in the coal industry, but that's another conversation. But with all the other metals, the rare metals that we will be digging up to do that better and to bring the processing into Australia and not export it for to be processed elsewhere is the biggest opportunity. But we like the idea of our resources building, you know, a new global economy, but we have to do it better. That's the key thing. We have to do it better. We have to have better engagement with indigenous people if we're intending to dig up their land because there's so many appalling stories, the history of it is bad. Can we do it better? We have to do it better. And I don't think we should be digging it out unless we do it better. 

Maddy: [00:21:47] It's important and I think it's something that can be like you touched on before, a bit depressing and it can be overwhelming. But I think if you can sort of flip it in your head, you know, it's exciting and it's an incredible opportunity for what we as a nation are able to do in this space that can really have an impact. It quite literally changed the world. Where do you sit on lack as individuals are actually being able to create an impact and you know, by aligning our investments with our values. Does that make a difference? 

Patrice: [00:22:19] Yes. If everyone acknowledged gambling was a social problem, well, everyone pulled their money out of gambling stocks. That would be good, not ethical. So society take it. Don't drink as much alcohol as we might drink. You don't have to invest in it. Resources. You've still got coal shares. Even banking. Think twice about that. Are you only investing because of a dividend? You know, you've got a history of a company with a dividend, for instance, and not caring about what the company does. So. So I do believe people unfortunately, I think, you know, a lot of people just want the money. But we need, you know, when there's a crisis like the floods, the fires, it's not money in the end that pulls you together that you end up caring about. It's people. It's us. We do not live in an economy. We live in an ecology, and we have to look after it. We shouldn't forget it. 

Sophie: [00:23:17] We also had an incredible live event about the sustainability space and one of our speakers, Camille, did show us a lot of factual evidence about investing in your values can also lead to a return. And to people that are concerned with that money aspect, it's you know, it's kind of almost this myth a little bit that if you're investing with your values and you're investing in sustainable practices or businesses, that you're kind of losing your return. But she showed us some really interesting kind of indexes and graphs that kind of showed really differently. And I think, you know, from where I sit personally, like sometimes it can be really hard because you think the change is. So it's going to be so difficult with the structures that we have in place. But if investing is a long term thing for you, then really the benefit will come. You just have to be patient with it. 

Patrice: [00:24:07] Yes, patience. Otherwise you are just a trader. People who just trade. Lose money.

Maddy: [00:24:14] No, it's not about that. 

Patrice: [00:24:16] Yeah. Yeah. So I. I agree. And think of real estate. I mean, you don't buy a house and turn it around next year anyway. You know, it's the same principle. It's a long term thing. And then you do get an increased value from that investment, that real estate investment. 

Sophie: [00:24:37] As you say, that's probably a very good example for a lot of Australian listeners because we can all really anchor ourselves. Not that Matt and I are on property, but everyone can really anchor themselves and be like, Oh yeah, you hold your house for a while. I might as well hold my investments for a while. 

Patrice: [00:24:49] For me as a new investor, seeing the portfolio you know do this is confronting. I feel it because I've never had it before. But then I look at other indexes and statistics where you see people that invested long term in stocks did better than with banks, and there's a lot of that. So that is what rich people understood. And I think average people, because they never participated in it, never understood. And I've learnt it through my koala journey and I realised, well why didn't I do that? Why didn't someone ever tell me about that and what would I have had to have known to be able to do it? So if you like you said you, you know you did you need a lot of money to start and even I've had a few if what would you call it, times when I thought, oh maybe I should be doing this say ten, 15 years ago and I knew people in the finance sector and one I said, Oh, I hear you're helping people invest and maybe you could help me. So this is a guy I knew and he goes, Yeah, yeah, you got a spare mill? And I go, I'm sorry. 

Maddy: [00:26:06] Oh, my God, I'm sorry. 

Patrice: [00:26:07] I've got to spend a million.

Maddy: [00:26:09] Yeah. Wow.

Patrice: [00:26:09] And I remember being really upset about that when that got said to me and that he was only interested in investing for his friends if they had $1,000,000 to invest. That was how he was running some part of it. 

Sophie: [00:26:23] And what was his pay? 

Patrice: [00:26:26] Well, who knows? 

Sophie: [00:26:26] So very hard on $1,000,000. 

Patrice: [00:26:30] But I wasn't. I was thinking maybe I could, you know, find $10,000 and maybe I could start something because I was like many people who thought then you had to have at least that. Whereas Koala, you can start at $10 a week. Quite a difference. 

Maddy: [00:26:47] I think even the comparison between buying property and buying investments is so interesting. You talked about how the volatility of your portfolio can make you nervous. Sometimes it goes up and down, but I remember someone telling me that when you own property, you don't have someone coming around every other day saying, this is what it's worth today. This is what it's worth today. It's that forced sort of long term turn off the share market and sort of check it in three years, in five years, in ten years, which is exactly what you do with property. And I thought that was such an interesting comparison because we get so sort of drawn into the ups and downs of the stock market, even though we know that we should be focussing on the long term. 

Patrice: [00:27:26] That's a good story. I will definitely use that. That's a good, good analogy. Yes. No one is coming around telling you that. 

Sophie: [00:27:34] So the question we've all been waiting for then really is, you know, we've been talking about Kuala, your investment app, which people should definitely check out. Is there a company within your portfolio that is exciting you at the moment? 

Patrice: [00:27:49] In particular, I have been very interested in a solar vehicle company. I don't know whether this is a reaction to Elon Musk because when I saw his factory, I thought, wow, that was, you know, amazing, those factories that he's building. But Elon Musk tells Tesla, you know, the be all and the end all of the new vehicle. So it's a solar vehicle company where the solar will drive the vehicle. And I thought when we're talking about all the problems with batteries and everything that we have because cars are still made of steel, right. Needing metallurgical coal to make it until green hydrogen comes on board. That is very exciting to me. That is, you know, Jetsons space, the sun driving cars, having it embedded in the materials. That probably excites me. So that's my sono.

Maddy: [00:28:51] I was going to say, I don't think I've ever actually heard about solar vehicles before, so that's a completely new concept altogether. Very cool. Do you know, have they actually developed a sort of a car that is in use now or is it still a work in progress? 

Patrice: [00:29:04] So they have thousands of people who have signed up to get them. They're doing a big roadshow through America soon. And so it's like all electric vehicles. You know, the technology, the transformation. People said to me they were overseas and they just looked at a neighbour, you know, not a Tesla and other one, and how excited they were. And it goes 500 kilometres and looks really posh on the inside, much more interesting so the growth let's face it we do live in a mobile world, particularly in Australia. I mean imagine what we're telling people we can't have a car anymore because you know, they're polluting. Well, we certainly don't want to hear that. But the idea of the silence, you know, that will come with these new vehicles, think how noisy and disgusting all those roads are. You know, we will live differently and the sound of our future will be different. So I and the idea of the sun being the sun being our main energy supply on earth, driving the vehicles of the future. That to me, if they can, all the tech people working on that, that's exciting. 

Sophie: [00:30:13] Someone was telling me the other day that if you had a Tesla in your house and you had like solar panels on your roof, you could like power your house, which would power your Tesla, and then you can plug your Tesla back into your house, which will power your house. And it just makes this whole economy that functions everything and it's all based off solar. And I was like, Oh my God, my mind is blown. 

Patrice: [00:30:37] True. True. So the issue for the Tesla and the generation of cars now are the batteries and the size of the batteries and what the batteries are made of. Yeah. And there'll be a lot of well it's, it's fast at the moment that technology and the evolution of that technology and it will improve. I'm just putting new solar panels on the roof of one of the houses here and the capacity of the size of the solar panels is like eight times better than the ones I put on 15 years ago. I think, you know, within 15 years, the size of the panels, the capacity, the panels, and now the storage options that are available, it's so we will, I mean, what you girls will be living will be, you know, be like the start of electricity. You know, once upon a time there were candles and here we are. So no, it's exciting.

Maddy: [00:31:37] Well, Petraeus, I honestly would love to sit here all day and just continue chatting with you, but we've. Probably should start to be rounded out. So. One final question that we do have for you is what piece of advice would you give to someone starting out on their investing journey? 

Patrice: [00:31:52] Start soon and start small. Start small. You know, you don't have to be confident. You build confidence. When you're a musician, you don't play Carnegie Hall. In the beginning, you might play at the local pub. You start small and starting small is good. And it doesn't matter what age you are either. 

Sophie: [00:32:13] I love that advice because I feel like we've had a lot of friends who've started very small and then when they've built their confidence, you get more and more conversation out of them and excitement. Now they're like on their trajectories, which is great. But Petraeus, it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today. Do you want to plug anything about Kuala where people can find it before we go? 

Patrice: [00:32:37] Well, I should say one important thing. It's Kuala. Remember when you were one and couldn't say koala? It's a koala. KW I tell a koala, it's a koala. It's a baby, it's young, it's new, it's a koala. So that's I suppose that's the plug I'd like to say. 

Maddy: [00:32:57] And we will make sure that we put a link to it in episode notes as well so you can go and check it out for Trace. Thank you so much for your time. 

Patrice: [00:33:05] Great chatting, Maddy. Sophie all the best. [

Sophie: [00:33:08] I feel like I'm going to go look into solar panels after that chat. 

Maddy: [00:33:13] I know, gosh. There's just so much fascinating technology out there, isn't there? And Australia is so well positioned to just kill it, to do such great things. 

Sophie: [00:33:23] Although it's not like La Nina's kind of killing that, but like we've got a lot of sun. 

Maddy: [00:33:27] Doesn't it make you excited, though, to think about what jobs we could have in the future?

Sophie: [00:33:31] Yeah. 

Maddy: [00:33:32] Well, all these different things. I love my current job. Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone would also be at my current job forever. But there's lots of others. Jobs out there, so. 

Sophie: [00:33:42] You might be fired up, you know? Anyway, if you want to join the conversation, ask any questions about today's episode or even just share your thoughts. Jump on to YIGC podcast on Instagram. We're also on Facebook. Maddy took it away.

Maddy: [00:33:59] YIGC Investing a podcast discussion group? I think we'd love to hear about any sort of emerging technologies in this space, if you've heard of anything, I know that, you know, I was reading the other day about concrete that's going to charge cars like on the roads of charge. Because as you drive along, I want to hear about it. I want to get excited. I love it. 

Sophie: [00:34:18] Or alternatively, if you know any, you know, big old companies that are really changing their practises, you know, not the sustained.

Maddy: [00:34:25] Love of transition story.

Sophie: [00:34:26] Yeah, yeah. They're not just stating it, but you've really seen some change. You also love that as well. But we'll pop a little thread on our Facebook community for anyone to join the conversation. 

Maddy: [00:34:35] Otherwise we will catch you next. 

Sophie: [00:34:37] Bye