The Evolution of Investing: Is Micro Investing Still Worth It?

Bryce: [00:00:31] Welcome to get started investing in this podcast, we cover all the basics that you need to start your investing journey. Are you joining us for the very first time? Is this the very start of your investing journey? Well, before you dive into this episode with us, our feed is designed to go from the very beginning. So we strongly recommend that you scroll up and start at episode one. However, if you are feeling brave and just want to dive in, then of course, don't let us stop you here at Get Started Investing feed. We unpack all of the jargon and the confusing bits. We hear your investing stories with the goal of making investing less intimidating. And of course, we want to have a good time along the way. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you going?

Alec: [00:01:11] I'm very good. Bryce. Great to be back for another week. 

Bryce: [00:01:14] It is always great to be back. 

Alec: [00:01:16] Yeah, we're talking all things micro investing today 

Bryce: [00:01:20] with a different slant. 

Alec: [00:01:21] Well, yeah, because the span of our investing journey of the time that we've been investing has been a pretty phenomenal story with micro investing. I remember when we were living together in Canberra, micro investing wasn't really a thing in Australia, and Acorns had just launched over in the US and we were like, This is this is that big roundup. Hopefully it can come to Australia. And now what? Eight years later, it is ubiquitous to the point where we're asking today, Do we even need it anymore? 

Bryce: [00:01:54] That's it. So we have spoken about the benefits of micro investing before, but this is taking a look at the situation today, how it's all panned out. And then we will answer that question Do we need micro investing? 

Alec: [00:02:07] But first one piece of housekeeping, if you're listening in Australia, you may be familiar with the ASX share market game. We're playing it this year. The boys at Comedian v economist and Maddy and Sophie over at youre in good company doing a bunch of content around the game and we've set up an Equity Mates Media League where in it some of the team here at Equity Mates HQ are in it. Thomas, Adam, Maddy and Sophie are all in it. Come join us. Come play. See if you can beat Bryce. He's he's laid the gauntlet down. He's said no one is going to beat him, so let's see if we can beat him.

Bryce: [00:02:44] Yeah, that's true. I will win the competition. So just if you're unsure what the game is. Get 50000 thousand in fake money and we get to trade the ASX 300 and a number of ETFs as well. It mirrors what happens in the real market, so it's a great chance for you to practise everything that we preach without real money. Come and join along. The league is called EM media. We'll put some links in the show notes, so you can join us. It starts on the 3rd of March. 

Alec: [00:03:14] You can practise what you preach. Or if you listen to the bonus episode we did with the Comedian v economist, Adam is going to trade sports team sponsors. Yes, that is definitely not what we preach. But hey, it's fake money. So you can test out new tactics if you would like. 

Bryce: [00:03:31] It's going to be a lot of fun and we hope to see you in our league. But Ren, let's start with having a quick debrief on the difference between the traditional broker and what is now micro investing. 

Alec: [00:03:45] Yeah, this this episode started when we were talking about the lower and lower minimums that traditional brokers allow you to invest with. So if we go back, you know us living in Canberra, figuring out what investing was, subscribing to the IFR and feeling like we were? Yeah, did you subscribe? I think so, yeah. And do you remember that used to be that Google Chrome extension the world walker or whatever? Yeah, no longer works. Unfortunately, now we do pay and subscribe. But that was great for two uni students trying to figure it all out. But back in those days, there was a real difference between micro investing and Broker's micro investing. The concept was it pulled investors money and allowed investors to start with literally just a couple of cents. And we were looking over at acorns in the US and being like, Wow, that's a really cool innovation, because in Australia, back where we were, you generally had to invest with at least five hundred dollars. That was sort of the minimum amount of money that you got to invest in the market. 

Bryce: [00:04:50] But that is changed or has changed, which is fantastic over time. As more competition is coming to the market, more brokers have come in. The minimum to invest is now much, much lower, which is fantastic. We now, I think shares is lets you literally invest with a couple of cents or as low as a cent. 

Alec: [00:05:09] We talk about the race to the bottom in terms of fees, but I think there's also been a rise to the race, to the bottom in terms of investing minimums. So it's become cheaper and it's become and you've needed less money to invest. And as you as you said, you now can invest with literally one cent through a traditional broker.

Bryce: [00:05:28] So then that gap between. Micro investing and brokers seems to be getting closer and closer and closer.

Alec: [00:05:36] Yeah, the benefit of micro investing seems to have been eroded a little bit. Yeah, you don't. And the innovation that's really enabled, this is when micro investing came on the scene. It was all about pulling investors money. So 30 cents from Bryce, 50 cents from May, $2 from Camaguey, you know, like it all, it all gets rolled up and then it buys one share and we each have a bit of that. We have a fraction of that. Well, the brokers saw that and said, well, we can do fractional shares as well. And so what happens with people like shares is or Robin Hood over in the US, they just buy the share. And if you want to buy a fraction of that share, they hold the share and you then own a fraction of it. So the real innovation that is enabled both micro investing and these brokers to get lower and lower and lower is the idea of owning a fraction of a share. 

Bryce: [00:06:29] Yeah. So good. I mean, I remember when we were starting out and Amazon was the 800 box or something. I don't know 100 bucks, but you had to buy the full thing. Yeah, I didn't have that much money. 

Alec: [00:06:41] Yeah, I only I still don't.

Bryce: [00:06:42] 600 student. Thank God I can buy in cents. 

Alec: [00:06:45] Yeah. And so if we talk about the situation today, what we see around the world is that if you want to start investing with very small amounts, you can do so with micro investing apps or you can do so with more traditional online broker. So in the states, we spoke about Acorns as the O.G. Micro investing app. Yes, they're still kicking around. Pretty sure they're a publicly traded company now, still kicking. 

Bryce: [00:07:10] They did make it to Australia finally. They did.

Alec: [00:07:13] Yeah, they did. So acorns in America, you can invest from literally cents. But then when we had a look at Robinhood, if you're buying depending on what part of the Robinhood, well, terms and conditions you read, you can either invest from one cent or $1. Right? Well, either way, it's very small. Okay. We're not in the states. We don't have access to Robinhood, but from what we could read, that was the numbers. Okay? If you go to the UK, wealthify Lets You Invest is a micro investing app that lets you invest from one pound. But traditional brokers like Etoro, they allow you to invest from a minimum of $10. So if you're in the UK, you know there's not that much of a difference in Australia. You said Acorns finally made it out here. Acorns came here and then became rise to raise lets you round up your money and invest from literally, since there's plenty of other platforms that do the same. But as you mentioned, Sharesies is a New Zealand broker that's come to Australia lets you invest in shares or ETFs from one cent. Nice. So wherever you are in the world, there's micro investing platforms and there's online brokers, and the difference between them in terms of how much money you need to start investing is pretty negligible. 

Bryce: [00:08:29] I got to say America Australia, kudos to you guys letting people get into the market with cents. Wealthify... a pound. That's like almost two bucks. True. Where's the cents? Where's the pennies?

Alec: [00:08:42] Well, I mean, look, to be fair, maybe there are other platforms. Yeah, there might be. One thing that I've really noticed is Google Geo block the shit out of you 

Bryce: [00:08:52] when you searching this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Alec: [00:08:54] It's like micro investing apps in the UK, and then you just get hit with heaps of Australian ones. 

Bryce: [00:08:59] Interesting. Yeah, that's the algorithm working for you. I know, I know. How do we get the Google of UK Google.com to the Dash UK? 

Alec: [00:09:08] Yeah. 

Bryce: [00:09:10] Can you change the location anyway? All right, let's let's keep moving. 

Alec: [00:09:15] I mean, you can get there. Let's be clear, but it's just, they know you're in Australia, but yeah, let's move on. 

Bryce: [00:09:21] So then Ren, I guess the question comes down to with the fact that I can now take cents, invest it through brokers, invest without the minimum of $500. I can take a bit more charged with with the investments that I'm making, not pull my money with everyone else. Do we need micro investing apps any more? We have said in our book throughout this show that it is a great way to start your investing journey. It might be confusing if people are coming on and listening now, and we're saying, do we even need it anymore? Are they outdated? Where do you land on that? 

Alec: [00:09:56] Well, we went out to the Equity Mates community on our Instagram to get their thoughts. And if you're not following us at Equity Mates, you won't regret it. So to the question, do we need them any more? Are people using them? Are they outdated? Well, 41 per cent of the Equity Mates community say they currently use a micro investing platform, so a little bit less than half. Yeah. 31 percent said they previously used a micro investing app, but no longer do. So I think that's an interesting dynamic, though there's. A number of investors that are graduating out of that started with micro investing and graduating out. We asked if people would have started investing if it wasn't for micro investing platform. And 68 per cent of people said they would have started investing without micro investing. But 32 percent so a third said they would not have started investing if it wasn't for micro investing platforms. So I think that's a really interesting point about the role of micro investing plays. 

Bryce: [00:11:05] I absolutely agree, and I think that, you know, I can think of some real life examples in our friendship group. My partner, Harriet, even myself, I would I. I am in that group of have previously but no longer use so many people use it as a way, and we talk about using it as a way to just dip in the water and understand what it's like to have money in the market in a way that you know, you're not going to have to pick stocks, you're not going to have to think too much about it. You can get started actually knowing nothing. 

Alec: [00:11:33] Yeah. And I think there's some there's some key. So sure, maybe the ability to invest in tiny amounts is not as valuable as it used to be because as more and more platforms sort of allow you to do the same thing. But I think there are a number of features of micro investing that mean it's still have a place. And I think what you just said there around being automated is really valuable. You can set and forget with acorns or raiz you, plug it into your bank account and it rounds up so you buy a coffee for $4. 50, it takes a 50 cents an investment for you that getting into the market without thinking about it is so valuable. I think Raizs original tagline was Change your life without changing your life. No idea why that went away from it, because it's it's a good line. But I think that's super valuable, incredibly valuable. 

Bryce: [00:12:24] But just like we saw the brokers get closer to micro investing on the minimums front, we're also now seeing brokers get closer on the allowing for auto invest front, which is awesome. Yeah, yeah. 

Alec: [00:12:36] So we in Australia, we have Pearler that does automated investment. So you can say every month take $100 from my bank account, put it into an ETF 

Bryce: [00:12:45] sharesies too. 

Alec: [00:12:46] So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if the others follow very quickly. I would put money on it. In fact, I would be surprised if they didn't. And I'm sure overseas it's a similar story. And we see also the crypto brokers do it, you know, i.e. Swyft X and I have an automated investment with them. But I think that leads to the second thing where micro investing is really valuable. It ingrains the right investing behaviour in terms of dollar cost averaging. 

Bryce: [00:13:14] How much of your investing would you automate if your broker did it? 

Alec: [00:13:17] I would honestly be a better investor because what I would do is figure out how much I saved. Take the lion's share of that and automate that. Yeah, and then only invest in individual stocks with what I have left. Yeah. Whereas right now what I do is transfer it to my brokerage and be like, I should put some into it. And then it's like, Oh, Spotify might be cheaper, Shopify. Or you know what? What am I buying today? Like, that's the thing that gets me excited. Yeah. So I think if that feature existed, I would be a more disciplined and better investor. Yeah. So for the broker platforms out there listening? 

Bryce: [00:13:55] Hurry up. Hurry up. Yeah. Look, you're right. The DCA dollar cost averaging component. We did an episode on this just before Christmas. Getting into the habit of doing that is is has proven to be incredibly successful and micro investing is sort of no better example and no better way of doing that. Putting small amounts into the market at regular increments and not even thinking about it and buying in it at different stages of the market. 

Alec: [00:14:24] Not worrying if the market's too overvalued or undervalued. Is it going to crash? Where are we just consistently drip feeding money into the market? Time and time again is shown to be the most sensible way to invest. Yeah, but we don't do it because we're humans with a higher price. So speaking of being dumb, humans with brains that play tricks on us. One thing that traditional brokers in the stock market in general, a feature of it that confuses a lot of us is there's so much choice. There's just stupid amounts of choice. Yeah, and that choice is overwhelming, even for the most seasoned investor. And I think one thing that micro investing still does well is really limit that choice, reduce the noise and really simplify it for a beginner investor.

Bryce: [00:15:15] Yeah, a lot of people in our community, if you're not part of the Equity Mates Facebook group, make sure you come and join because there's a lot of conversation going on there. But time and time again, we have people coming in. I've got a list of 10 ETFs. What should I choose from, which one should I start with? 

Alec: [00:15:41] Even you just saying that another thing that micro investing does. They don't use the acronym. 

Bryce: [00:15:47] Platinum Fund. So, yeah, you don't have to worry about all of that. With micro investing, you get to choose between what would be classed as a diversified or growth portfolio. They choose all the stocks in the pot and the ETFs that go into it, and why you got a great way to start. 

Alec: [00:16:04] Yeah. So and the last one that I've just noted, oh, there's two more, actually, but one more that I've noted here is ease of use. So again, you know, maybe we can invest with small amounts on brokerage platforms, but sometimes they're not the most intuitive platforms to use. And to be fair, they've got a lot better and a lot more intuitive. But there's something really easy about these micro investing apps. It's like three clicks and you've invested with your first dollar, you know, like, that's yeah. 

Bryce: [00:16:33] Yeah, that's good. That is good. We want we want the Amazon. Oh, one one click buy. They tried to sell this. Some start ups coming out. Now they're trying to bait that. Well, no, I don't know how to make it frictionless. You just look at it like 

Alec: [00:16:49] your bank account. They let you buy, you bought it. If I ordered the last thing I think we should say about micro investing apps is that they give you access to other asset classes because everything we've spoken about so far today is really focussed on shares. You know, we're saying you can invest in the share market with your broker like Robinhood or eToro, or shares these from as little as a cent or a dollar. But there are other asset classes which where it's harder to get into so fixed income, property, stuff like that, you know, micro investing there is still much easier to access than traditional investing. 

Bryce: [00:17:29] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So on that point, Ren, we went to the community as well and asked them how they're using micro investing apps to access other other types of assets. 78 percent use micro investing apps for shares. That's not surprising, but 15 percent for crypto. So bamboo comes to mind. They let you invest in micro invest into bitcoin, ethereum, gold and silver. 

Alec: [00:17:53] Yeah, bamboo available in the US and Australia. Not sure about anywhere else? 

Bryce: [00:17:58] Yes. Plans to go global. One percent use for fixed income, and I would assume that would be the blossom app in Australia, other apps elsewhere, and six percent for other. We would assume that would be, you know, the real estate. There are some apps that let you buy small amounts of coshared real estate.

Alec: [00:18:20] Residential brickx comes to mind. I think there's a couple of others. There's nothing more boring than micro investing into fixed income products just in terms of like. I mean, it's like it's sensible. It's incredibly defensive, incredibly sensible. But just hearing you say that in a sentence, almost, it's like 

Bryce: [00:18:40] micro investing into a term deposit. Oh gosh, boring. So look, some of the popular platforms here in Australia we have mentioned raise 20 percent of our community use raise. Twenty six percent, though use spaceship very similar to raise and then 20 percent. Twenty seven percent sorry use CommSec Pocket One of the biggest banks here, the biggest bank here in Australia let you have a invest into a bunch of ETFs. [00:19:07][27.6]

Alec: [00:19:08] Yeah, seven ETFs you can choose from. Yeah, so yeah, those are the three big platforms in Australia res space ship CommSec Pocket. I was surprised that of those three, CommSec pocket was the most popular, but then twenty seven percent were in the other bucket. And so that's, you know, the brokers that allow you to invest in small amounts, bamboo prick x, all of those other platforms. 

Bryce: [00:19:32] Well, Ren. I can't wait to reveal the results of our Our Community survey more broadly that we've been doing in a couple of weeks time because I have a big bone to pick with a lot of our audience and their use of CommSec. 

Alec: [00:19:47] Still, CommSec still has the way 

Bryce: [00:19:49] much exposure to concisely 

Alec: [00:19:51] like it is amazing, you think, and this is a very Australian focussed part of the conversation. But we have just seen so much money poured into this space in terms of venture capital investments. And so much of that has gone to advertising superhero covered every bus in every capital city over summer. And yet CommSec still just reigns supreme. 

Bryce: [00:20:14] I know we have like nothing, nothing. They don't have to tell us nothing. They don't advertise and they still charge a fortune. 

Alec: [00:20:20] They used to go into schools and sign people up while they're young.

Bryce: [00:20:23] But that is that is what that that's just the most brilliant marketing campaign they ever did. anyway We will talk about this at some point because I feel we have a bigger role to play at Equity Mates and letting people know they can be better off. 

Alec: [00:20:38] But like, you know, if CommSec get better, if they they have come to the party, they've cut their brokerage in half. Like, I have no problem with them as long as they keep delivering for the retail investor. 

Bryce: [00:20:49] Yeah, but there's just there's better platforms. Yeah, and there's no incentive for them to keep going when so then they're just so big.

Alec: [00:20:58] So let's get back to micro investing. Bring the beef next time. OK, let's get back to micro investing. I am going to make a big call. OK? When we started investing eight years ago, when I started investing living with you eight years ago. Micro investing barely existed. There was one start up in the US that really was setting the tone, which was acorns. Eight years later, we're saying it's ubiquitous. There's a platform in almost every country, and many of them are publicly listed like they're becoming pretty mature as businesses and we're asking today, have a place anymore. I think if we fast forward another eight years, there just won't be a difference. The idea of a micro investing app and a brokerage platform, they will just be one in the same. The raises in Acorns are going to have to move up the value chain because they don't want their customers to graduate off their platform, to full service brokers or to online brokers. And similarly, the Robinhood's, the superheroes, all of them. They want to start PayPal's investing journey. And as we found in our survey, a third of our community found micro investing was the thing that got them started. So all of the things we've spoken about automated investing, you know, set and forget round up features limited choice if you want it, making platforms easier to use, maybe giving access to micro invest into other assets. All of that stuff, I feel, is just going to be table stakes for brokers 

Bryce: [00:22:24] and then the Equity Mates platform will be sitting above it all. Reigning Supreme. Also watch this space in eight years time. Yeah, no. Look, that makes total sense, and the lines are becoming much more blurry at the moment, so I totally agree with that. Now Ren before we before we move to a break and then answer some of the questions, there are a couple of reasons why we might not be interested in micro investing. Do we just quickly want to close them out? Sure. 

Alec: [00:22:53] I mean, yeah, we've pumped up micro investing a bit for set and forget round ups taking all that stuff, but you've got to be mindful of fees. We hate fees here at Equity Mates. It's our number one policy. If you're investing a dollar a month and the fees are 50 cents a month, you're losing half your money in fees and you're not going to make that up by your investment returns. So if you're investing small amounts, you have to be mindful of the fees you're paying. So that's number one. 

Bryce: [00:23:18] Let's just put that into even more focus. Raiz in Australia, if you have less than $15000 in your account, they're charging you $3 50 a month. So if you're only investing cents and it happens to add up to two bucks, what? 

Alec: [00:23:32] Yeah, what if you have less than $3 50 in your account? 

Bryce: [00:23:35] Well, yeah, I guess I don't know. I guess that you just keep netting out at zero. I don't I don't actually know how they take that fee, but it might be built into the price somewhere along the lines. But yeah, you definitely need to keep that in mind. That is your brokerage. 

Alec: [00:23:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So number one is fees. Always be mindful. Always be mindful, but be especially mindful when you're investing small amounts because as a percentage, that can be really high. Second one, you think you may be able to get better returns elsewhere. 

Bryce: [00:24:09] What do you mean by that?

Alec: [00:24:10] Well, we've spoken about how limiting the choice is good to reduce the noise and make it easy, but it also means that maybe the best investments aren't there. You know, if we think back to when we were in that share house meant to keep referencing that way and or when Acorns Australia first launched a couple of years later, we could have put out all of our investments into acorns and probably got like seven or eight percent return a year. Or we could have gone all in on Amazon. Yeah, yeah, which we did, which we did. And instead, I wear it. Instead, I went all in on Slater and Gordon and got much worse. Returns lost the first thousand dollars that I invested. But it's just to be mindful of, you know, like micro investing. You're probably going to get the market's average returns there or thereabouts. Whereas if you're if you back yourself to pick individual stocks or find the right fund manager or find an ETF that you think will outperform the market, they'll obviously do better. But that comes with higher risk. So it's just about risk tolerance. But that is one downside, and I think that's why a lot of people graduate on a broad system. 

Bryce: [00:25:19] It's over. Yeah, people become more interested, become more confident, become more aware of other opportunities and what they could be doing with their money. And and eventually graduate to to choosing other alternatives, which is totally fine.

Alec: [00:25:34] And so when you graduate, you don't have to close your micro investing account. We should say that.

Bryce: [00:25:39] Yeah, of course. I think I still remain open, but there's nothing in there. You can do both. Yeah. All right. So before we continue Ren, let's just take a very quick break and we'll get straight back into it after we hear from our sponsors. All right, Ren, so some questions that we've got in so Ren question number one do any of the micro investing apps pay dividends?

Alec: [00:26:02] long and short of it. Yes. You are the owner of whatever fraction of the ETF or the shares that you own through your micro investing platform in Australia. We've had a look before Raiz and CommSec pocket automatically reinvest them. Yeah. So it's not like you're going to get cash in your bank account, but the dividend will get put back into your investment amount. And I think spaceship pay your dividends out annually as a distribution, not if you're overseas. Check it, but yeah, you're entitled to those dividends as the investor, so you get them like that. 

Bryce: [00:26:36] Second, do you and I to Bryce and like use micro investing for shares? 

Alec: [00:26:42] So I used to use raiz when it was Acorns Australia. That wasn't how I started investing, but that was very early in my investing journey. I no longer use it for shares just because I invest in shares through a normal online broker. But I do use micro investing for crypto. I use bamboo because I just dollar cost averaging into bitcoin and Ethereum and don't want to think about it. I also I also use Swyft X, the dollar cost average, but same same thing. It's just like tiny amounts consistently don't freak out about the price. What about you? 

Bryce: [00:27:21] Exactly the same. So there's no point me repeating exactly the same. You still have. I still have raiz open. Nothing's going in there. Took everything out a number of years ago. 

Alec: [00:27:32] Are you getting hit with a $3 50 fee a month? 

Bryce: [00:27:35] Not because I don't think there's anything. I don't think it's 

Alec: [00:27:37] Oh, you just not going into negative. 

Bryce: [00:27:39] It's not active, you're just sitting there. I should check that and I haven't checked in in years, so I'd hope it's not a negative. And similarly, micro invest into crypto. 

Alec: [00:27:50] Nice. All right. Next one question for you. When should I make the change from micro investing to online brokers? 

Bryce: [00:27:58] Well, there's no sort of after two years, that's the time to make the change. The change is when you feel comfortable and confident that you can take that next step and and set up a brokerage account. Also, you don't have to do one or the other. Keep Micro Investing going. And then just like you use micro investing to test the waters, sign up to a brokerage account. And as we've spoken about this episode, you don't need to put huge amounts of money in, put small amounts of money in and test what it's like to buy into individual stocks and individual ETFs. You'll know when that moment is, and you're feeling comfortable and confident that you are that you're ready to do that. 

Alec: [00:28:32] Yeah, 100 percent. There's no there's no one size fits all answer, but I think what you finish there with when you feel comfortable and confident, it's the right time. Yeah, so Bryce. A number of questions came through about phase one of the phase like, don't the brokerage fees get expensive? Is it really worth it? Are the fees higher than non-Microsoft micro platforms? So I think we touched on fees a little bit earlier, but it's good that the Equity Mates community are asking those questions because it's the right question to ask. And I think the way to do it, jump on the micro investing platform's website. They'll they have to outline their fees and then do the maths. If it's a percentage, if it's a dollar amount. Figure out what you're paying in fees and compare that to what your other options are, because I'm really glad that that's the most common question we got. 

Bryce: [00:29:19] Yeah, agreed. No matter where you are in the world, I'm sure your home country has a comparison website that'll easily do that for you. Find accommodation here in Australia is a great way to do that. Alright, Ren to close it out. Is there a point where it's risky having large sums in micro investing platforms? 

Alec: [00:29:37] I mean, no riskier than the share market itself. Some will say because it's held in custody rather than chess sponsored, there might be some additional risk there. But I think the main thing is whether you're investing through an online broker or whether you're investing through a micro investing platform. There are means to an end, and the end is the share market that you're investing in. And so it's risky, like the share market. We're living through it in 2022. Like if you invested in growth stocks, you probably lost a fair bit of money in the first month or two of this year. And so there's there's risk you might lose money. I think space ship, there's a few people that said I've lost a lot of money on space ship because it's more orientated towards like growth and tech. But the upside is the stock market continues to grind higher over the long term. It's been the best source of investment returns, history's greatest wealth creator, and we can access it from literally one cent these days. That's pretty exciting. 

Bryce: [00:30:43] That's that's pretty exciting. That is a great way to finish the episode. So look to answer the question Do we even need micro investing anymore? It feels like. And it's also. Shown through the Equity Mates community that there is a place for micro investing, but the lines are just becoming a little more blurred. If if you've enjoyed this episode and it was your first welcome to the community, make sure you go back and listen to our 12 part series at the start to really get you up to speed. And don't forget as well that there's plenty more content in the Equity Mates media network. Go and check out you're in good company! Canadian economist Crypto Curious and also Equity Mates Investing Podcast If if you want more information and more content on the world of investing, we're covering it all but Ren. It's always great to chat. A reminder that you can join us on our sex game show notes will be available for that, but we'll pick it up next week. 

Alec: [00:31:36] Sounds good.