Industry Deep Dive: Video Game Industry

Bryce Leske: [00:01:28] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast that follows our journey of investing. We break down the world of finance and investing from beginning to dividend. So that is more accessible for you. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my Equity Mates Ren. How's it going? [00:01:43][14.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:01:44] Very good, bryce very excited for this episode where we take a deep dove into a particular industry, an industry that a lot of people are interested in the video game industry. Yeah, but before we get there. is that new intro? [00:01:55][11.9]

Bryce Leske: [00:01:58] Yes, new Intro. Look, we had some feedback that I kept saying 45 minutes or less in our introduction and very rarely did we have any episodes under 45 minutes. So it's a bit misleading, I thought, having the quality of content that we do and quality assurance. [00:02:12][14.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:02:14] I thought I looked it up. What are your thoughts? [00:02:16][2.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:02:16] I thought it was good. [00:02:17][1.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:02:18] I thought it was good. It doesn't roll off the tongue quite as easily, but hey, you've done two hundred and ninety five episodes. One way it's going to be a learning curve to get it down. [00:02:25][7.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:02:28] Looking for feedback and speaking of feedback and also speaking of video game industry, Deep Dove Ren, one of the biggest things that we are trying to do over the next period of time here on Equity Mates is involved all of you guys, the community out there, and get you on the show as much as possible to share your journey, share your stories, share the industries that you're passionate about. So we will be reaching out at various times to see if anyone is willing to come on and share their experience. And for the first time today, we have one of our listeners, one of our community members, all of a panel joining us online to take us through the video game industry, Deep Dive, which is a world first for Equity Mates. Welcome to the show. [00:03:08][40.6]

Ollie Powell: [00:03:10] Thanks for having me. [00:03:10][0.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:03:10] So before we get stuck into the video games, what do you think of my new owner? [00:03:13][3.0]

Ollie Powell: [00:03:14] I like it. I think you've been saying 45 minutes or less, but I want to be fact checked on this. I'm pretty sure the first episode or maybe the second episode was over forty five. I'm thinking it's pretty much a good time to change, even if the second episode breached it. [00:03:29][14.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:03:29] Can you get off my back. You come in stronger. I like that. I like it. Like it. Equity Mates. [00:03:36][6.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:03:36] Yes. So I did change from equity buddy if you realize there and to Equity Mates to be to chat online as to how do you go from being an Equity Mates to an equity buddy. And there's no recrimination in this group. It's Equity Mates all the way. [00:03:49][12.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:03:50] You just strip my title to title [00:03:51][1.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:03:53] and to your point earlier, I think that to be honest, there were moments where we were trying to do 15 minute episodes, [00:03:58][5.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:03:59] 15 minutes or less. That one didn't know. [00:04:02][3.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:04:04] Anyway, look, we are here to do a deep dove. Over the last number of years, Alec and I have done deep dives on a number of industries. And it's awesome that you have put your hand up to come in and help us do a bit of a deep dove into the video games industry. And I think to your credit, you've actually done all of the research and I guess notes for this episode. So a massive thank you for doing that. Looking forward to getting stuck in it is open to any other listeners as well. If they want to follow in his footsteps and suggest in industry that they're keen to do a deep dive on 100 percent. [00:04:34][30.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:04:34] I mean, we're not experts in any of these industries. You know, we do the research and then prepare a Deep Dove episode. So, you know, if you don't have to work in the industry, you don't be an expert. If you're interested in an industry and you want to come on and talk about it. [00:04:49][14.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:04:49] Open door policy, open door policy. [00:04:51][1.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:04:52] One last thing, Ren, before we hand over to Olly to run the whole show, well, we're [00:04:55][3.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:04:56] going to be in marketing. [00:04:56][0.9]

Bryce Leske: [00:04:59] Do you want to quickly give us a rundown on the ETF competition? [00:05:00][1.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:05:01] Yeah, yeah. So due to the demand of people who wanted to enter, we extended the deadline. So you now have until today, Monday, the 12th of October, to put your entries into our build an ETF competition. If you've got an idea of an ETF that you think should be in the market, you know, an index that should be tracked or an industry that should be tracked or whatever, it is a fame, whatever, submit it via our website and go in the running for a chance to win a thousand dollars. [00:05:28][27.9]

Bryce Leske: [00:05:29] You try it out of friends back then. [00:05:30][1.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:05:31] Yes. [00:05:31][0.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:05:32] And then once you've entered or if you don't want to enter, but you want to hear the results. And here's some of our favorite ideas. Monday, the 19th of October, we'll be releasing a bonus episode on the get started investing. Faid talking about our favorite ideas and announcing a winner stay subscribed to that fate, because later in the day, we're going to be releasing our three part Everything ATF series done in conjunction with data sharing [00:05:57][24.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:05:57] tips for beginners [00:05:58][0.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:05:58] to get started investing. Faid is going to be very active on Monday, the 19th of October, and you don't want to miss it. So make sure you can subscribe to that feed now before you forget. [00:06:08][9.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:06:08] Nice one. So if you want that thousand bucks, you've entered the competition, you must be listening because we'll be putting a code word in there. [00:06:15][6.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:06:17] it's not a code word. You can't claim your money now, [00:06:19][2.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:06:20] we've got you on the line. So I've got to ask, have you entered the competition? [00:06:23][2.5]

Ollie Powell: [00:06:24] I have. And I'm actually thinking. We finish this. I've got another idea from the notes, so I'm like, [00:06:29][5.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:06:30] OK, no, this [00:06:31][1.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:06:31] is there you go. Yeah, if you want to try and beat all of these, we'll keep it a secret idea. Make sure you go [00:06:36][5.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:06:37] and it's going to be very game. Yeah. [00:06:39][2.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:06:41] So the link is equitymates.com/dashcompetetion. Yeah, but Bryce hates that. I read hyperlinks out on the podcast, so just go to our website or our social media and you'll be able to find a link there. [00:06:54][12.0]

Bryce Leske: [00:06:54] Nice. So enough chitchat, enough of the housekeeping. Let's get stuck into it. As we said, we've got Oleg on the phone before we jump in. How about give the Equity Mates community a bit of a background into what you're doing, what you're interested in, how you came to find Equity Mates, all that sort of jazz, and then we'll get stuck into all things video games, industry. [00:07:13][18.5]

Ollie Powell: [00:07:14] Easy. So I'm a fourth year law and finance student. I've been interested in finance for quite a while and mainly the equity markets, obviously, hence the the connection there. And I started my investing sort of journey at a pretty young age. I've been enjoying one of my current brokers since about when I was in grade six, when I protested with them to have me in it. Morgens Anyone knows Morgens It's a financial services company. It's one of the larger ones. And just to have me there, I wanted to look around and to help out for a weekend. I didn't actually know how markets worked. They were Monday to Friday. I thought they were just all the time. So he basically he just showed me some screens in a Bloomberg terminal and I was pretty happy. And they threw me in a corner and I watched for a bit. And then at the end of the day, I was 11 years old. So I was booted out for not providing them too much value, but definitely spurred my interest in finance into anything equity related. And that's sort of where we tie in to about twenty seventeen. I pretty much just started my business degree. I was about two years in there and I just want to expand so my knowledge about stocks and things like that. So I just googled best finance podcasts and there guys were [00:08:23][68.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:08:24] looking up and that's good that [00:08:25][1.9]

Ollie Powell: [00:08:28] I don't know if it's outdated though. It's like it's been a while since that time. But yeah, I think you're in like it was in a top ten list and I think there was like two ones that no longer exist. And then you guys, you've knocked out the competition. [00:08:39][10.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:08:40] There you go. Yeah, that's the plan. [00:08:42][2.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:08:43] Finally enough. It was Andrew Brown. It was straight after his. You hit it like a two part series with him. Yeah. [00:08:48][5.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:08:48] Yeah. As one of the first shocking audio fucking audio quality. Yeah. [00:08:52][3.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:08:54] But it's pretty fitting coming full circle because he was a guest on the Friday episode, so. [00:08:59][4.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:08:59] Yeah. Yeah. You just got released. It's quite nice. Yeah. Yeah. Where are you studying. [00:09:03][4.1]

Ollie Powell: [00:09:05] Queenslander. [00:09:06][0.8]

Bryce Leske: [00:09:07] Awesome. It is great to have you. And as we said, thank you so much for I guess putting in the effort to get these notes together and do the research. It's awesome. So how about we start from the beginning, [00:09:17][10.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:09:18] just before we get started? We've got all these notes here and we will publish this on the website alongside this episode. So on Monday, as we're talking through all this, if they want to read along or they want to go back and get further into the data, because I don't think we're going to be able to cover everything that you've written. People can jump online and read it and say in more detail the work that [00:09:41][22.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:09:41] he's done with this. [00:09:42][0.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:09:42] So I'll see why the video game industry. Let's start there. What is it about the industry that caught your attention? How did you come across it and want to sort of jump into a deep dove into it? [00:09:51][8.9]

Ollie Powell: [00:09:52] One of my mates, he's a twitch stream, among other things. And he sent me a message and said, have you heard of this new ETF called ASPO? And they it goes it's about video games. And that was pretty much the depth of what he said. But I've been playing video games from a young age. My all my friends have. I know a bunch of people been playing a massive market for it and I seen a bit of discussion of that ETF in particular in the Facebook group. So I just sort of it sort of just caught my eye or something. Or everyone says it's a growing industry, but I haven't seen anyone sort of say why and to sort of get into some numbers and where it's growing, where it's not. What's the main drivers. So I was spurred on initially by curiosity to see where is this money coming from? Like, why is it a growth market and how can I get in on that? So it was really just curiosity that got me into that one initially. Nice. [00:10:42][49.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:10:42] I love even that, though. You know, you look around, it's an industry that you use and it's an industry where you might, I assume, is making a bit of money from the twitch streaming and like that. Yeah. In itself is just using what's around you that very much Peter Lynch style of investing, of using what you know and what you use as the basis of your investing research. So it makes a lot of sense that, you know, if you say your mates making money from it, if you use it and you like it, it's a good industry to go deep on. [00:11:11][28.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:11:11] So, yeah, how about you hit us with some stats, I guess. How big is the industry? Has it been growing? I guess what are some of the big games that are in the industry run us through it. [00:11:20][8.7]

Ollie Powell: [00:11:20] So the digital games industry is one hundred and twenty billion dollars worldwide as of last. So it's not a massive, massive, but it's fairly big, like it's not a small industry and surprisingly and it's actually really got me was that 53 percent, which is sixty four billion dollars is from mobile games. Yeah, that is surprising. And I wouldn't have thought that I would have thought it would be more consoles and PlayStation and like PCs and things like that. But no, it's, it's mostly mobile games and about 30 billion is in personal computers or PCs with the big amount of money coming from there is in free to play games. So a big shift in these games going from being paid to play them versus just free to play. Anyone can play them and then make their money off micro transactions within the game. And that's quite interesting to me because I had a friend in high school that spent would have been in the high hundreds of thousands on legal legends, which, as anyone knows, it's free to play. But you can buy cosmetics, skins, chains, which don't do anything for the game. But this is a game. And if someone wants to spend that much money on a cosmetic skin or a bunch of them, like, that's an industry that I want to be behind because that's not driven by logic. And so I'm definitely into that. So and then fifteen point four from gaming consoles, 54 billion from like PlayStation's and Xbox, and then viewing video games had about five percent of revenue, which is six point five dollars billion. And that's things like EA Sports. And then another six point three or five percent is in extra reality. It's a bucket for virtual reality, augmented reality and reality and actual things like Oculus Rift, Sinur, virtual reality goggles and things like that. [00:13:00][99.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:13:00] And I think even if we just pause there like that in itself surprises me that, as you said, the console part of the industry is the smallest part and mobile games are the biggest part. Mobile games, they're mainly micro transactions as well, aren't they, when like people buy more lives on Candy Crush and stuff like that? [00:13:16][16.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:13:17] Exactly. And actually, Candy Crush, surprisingly, I've even thought about Candy Crush the last couple of years, and it's still one of the top two largest games on mobile that making the most money. [00:13:27][9.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:13:27] It's got it on his mind. We've become too predictable. [00:13:32][5.2]

Ollie Powell: [00:13:34] I was going to say what's number one, which really surprised me. And I don't know if you guys will pick it. Do you want to have a go? What do you think? The number one mobile game, Angry Birds. [00:13:42][7.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:13:42] That's not bad. [00:13:43][0.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:13:44] Tanks, worms. [00:13:44][0.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:13:45] clash of clans. [00:13:46][0.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:13:46] Oh No, it's Pokemon. Go. [00:13:48][1.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:13:49] Oh, you really still that has a big market. Twenty twenty. Well when that was like twenty [00:13:56][6.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:13:57] it was twenty sixteen or something. When it was massive wasn't it. [00:14:00][3.2]

Ollie Powell: [00:14:00] it was twenty sixteen. They had a massive takeover because everyone sort of went on the hype train of it and recently their revenue has been the same in August that it was in twenty sixteen massive resurgence with no one knows it. [00:14:12][11.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:14:12] you would think if there was one game that couldn't do well during covid when everyone was locked down it would be Pokemon go away. You have to walk around and like catch stuff in nature. Like, I'm surprised by that. [00:14:23][11.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:14:24] I'm very surprised. I actually have to double check that a couple of times. And it checked out on a couple of different sources. And I thought, wow, okay. Well, you know, that's it. [00:14:33][9.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:14:33] Well, that's why we're doing deep dive. [00:14:34][0.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:14:36] Oh, it's one hundred and twenty billion dollar industry. I imagine that, you know, looking at it, you're thinking EA Sports an extra reality whilst they're small at the moment, I would imagine they're probably some of the faster growing and will take up a large portion in years to come. What is the growth of the overall industry at the moment and sort of what's been driving that? [00:14:55][18.7]

Ollie Powell: [00:14:55] Yeah, so from twenty eighteen to twenty nineteen, the growth was only four percent for the industry as a whole and it was actually expected to decline from 2018 2019. I'm not sure why, but I think it was something to a lot of triple-A titles. So the big games like you call it duties and that not coming through, but the as you bring up the extra reality, part of it actually grew to twenty nineteen by 26 percent. So that industry growth was mainly spurred on by external reality and that was due to headset's coming out and a general rise of this technology being used outside of the gaming sphere. So for things like Walmart started using VR to train new employees, so they said that they could take tasks which took about 30 to 40 minutes to train people, and they do it in three to five minutes on a VR module [00:15:41][45.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:15:49] So maybe before we go too deep on extended reality, maybe if you can just define some of those terms, they are a and maybe just describe them a little for people who aren't too familiar with them. [00:16:00][10.8]

Ollie Powell: [00:16:00] Yeah, sure. So I think augmented reality or is the easiest to think about that is if you've ever played or Pokemon go is actually a good run or when you've got the hot dog on Snapchat, that little thing dancing around how it's in your room or where you're looking with your camera, but it's moving for you. It's in reality like you can see it through the screen. That's augmented reality. Virtual reality is those goggles that you put on. And it's like the screen and you basically you're. The first person you can move your head and the camera moves and things like that, and there's a lot of games that use that technology to sort of get you involved, to really immerse you and mix reality. I think it's a blend of the two. I'm not 100 percent sure what makes reality really means. It's kind of one of those terms that each analyst defines everything a bit differently. But I think it's just like whatever doesn't get Covid in those two buckets. [00:16:48][48.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:16:49] So then if we use that Wal-Mart example, so rather than having a training room in the back of the store or something, whether, you know, teaching in front of a whiteboard or something, they're getting virtual reality goggles and putting them on their new employees and basically training them through a video game. But it feels like it's a first person for them. [00:17:09][20.6]

Ollie Powell: [00:17:11] Yes, so they can interact with the surroundings. I think when I was reading the report, they were saying things like they usually have to get people normally trying them on, like they get them in a cherry picker or something to go up to the top and pick something off. They've got to set that up. They've got all the safety requirements. They've got to strap them in. They've got to have marshals standing around to enforce different safety precautions with the VR goggles. You just slap them on and just do it. I guess you can just have the experience of going up without having all that in place. Well, that's where that timesaving really comes in. And they said in twenty nineteen that they could train a million staff in four thousand stores using that. [00:17:47][36.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:17:48] Wow. I wonder what the experience would be like falling off a cherry picker in virtual reality. [00:17:53][5.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:17:54] Like a dream. Wake up. Just you wake up just before you hit the wall. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool. [00:18:00][5.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:18:00] So I guess if Wal-Mart is doing is the expectation that more and more companies will be following in their footsteps. [00:18:06][6.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:18:07] Yeah. So American Airlines also does it and that's getting them inside before any flight attendant ever steps foot in a plane they're trying to unveil to help new crew members familiarize themselves with the safety procedures so that they're not, you know, learning inside of a plane. They can get more people training outside and keep those planes in the air. I mean, it's not really that relevant now with Covid because all the planes are on the ground anyway. So you might want to get some use out of them. But market data sort of suggests that 71 percent of virtual reality sales in the goggles will be used for training purposes. So it's definitely steering upwards. [00:18:39][32.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:18:40] Well, so it's a bigger part of the virtual reality use case than gaming itself. Is this like corporate training? [00:18:48][7.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:18:48] Yeah, exactly. And that was really interesting for me, not wanting to give away too many of my ideas for this. But having an augmented reality ETF that tracks that growth is something that I might be submitting a bit later. [00:19:02][14.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:19:03] So we'll get into companies later. We won't go too far down the VR and extended reality rabbit hole at the moment. So I guess if we go back to the industry as a whole, so one hundred and twenty billion dollar industry, it grew at four percent last year. The biggest category is mobile, then PCs, then gaming consoles and then eSports and extended reality. Is there anything else that we should know in terms of setting the scene and giving the background for the industry? [00:19:30][27.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:19:31] You've got here that most of the revenue is coming from free to play and fortnight if you top highest grossing game of twenty nineteen for a second year in a row and that generated one point eight dollars billion and it's free to play. [00:19:42][10.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:19:43] All right. So it's all micro transactions they make money from. [00:19:46][3.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:19:46] Yeah, I'm not sure about consoles, but I'm fairly sure you don't paid to download fortnight. I've never been into it too much but I'm quite certain there's very box in which is there in game currency. So you pay in whatever your currency is for the box and then you can use that to buy skins. I believe that's how it works and that makes sense because eighty percent of all digital game revenue in twenty nineteen came from free trade to play games and in micro transactions. Well yeah, that's, that's really setting the scene for, for any sort of company you think about would be in that free space. [00:20:19][32.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:20:20] I remember for our afternoon beer discussions on YouTube, we spoke about the world's most hated company, which was Electronic Arts. They've been voted the most hated company a number of years in a row. But one year it was because of their loot boxes, which are a form of micro transaction. So it feels like they were probably early movers to this sort of revenue model. And they got a lot of hype at the time. But given it now seems to be the majority of revenue in the gaming industry, it feels like they may have been early and they copped a lot of hate for it, but now it's probably more widely accepted. [00:20:54][34.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:20:55] Oh, it's definitely widely accepted. Like if you go to counterstrikes its skins that you pay the money for, you get like a box. It used to be two Dollars. Now it's something like three or four and you pay for a K, which is two dollars or something like that, and you open up a loop box and you can get a skin and there's a it's like on a roulette table, you're rolling the dice and really getting a random skin out of it. And that's where they make most of their money is the game's pretty much free, but you pay to buy skins and loot boxes and things like that. Got a bit of hype. They seem to be around for the long haul, like which is good, I guess, for these companies that have adopted loot boxes and adopted cosmetic items without being absolutely destroyed in the public sphere. [00:21:37][42.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:21:38] So that's a good summary of the industry [00:21:40][2.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:23:02] So, Ollie, we've covered the background of the industry and 20/20 has obviously disrupted every industry across the world, but I imagine gaming has been particularly affected. A lot more people spending a lot more time inside and in front of screens. So how has Covid impacted the video game industry? [00:23:19][17.1]

Ollie Powell: [00:23:20] Covid it sounds Babic Kove has been one of the best things to happen for the video game industry. Well. So from January to August this year, the industry was up ten point eight billion from the same time last year. So from August 12, 19 to August 2020, console earnings were up 88 percent. Well, PC revenue is up 15 percent and mobile games were up three percent. So revenue really just took off in March as Covid happened and every area just experienced growth in the first eight months. Digital gains are up 13 percent relative in 2014 to eighty two point eight billion. Wow. So it's one of those things that I Covid locked everyone inside. What else do you do? Or you've watched every single thing on Netflix? [00:24:04][44.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:24:05] Well, you out the [00:24:07][1.6]

Ollie Powell: [00:24:08] check out the new card or something like that. [00:24:09][1.3]

Bryce Leske: [00:24:09] Well, speaking of new code, what are some of the big games that were driving this growth or that have seen some phenomenal sort of stats over the last quarter, over the Covid period [00:24:19][9.2]

Ollie Powell: [00:24:20] worldwide, the top ranked games for each area, so mobile with Pokemon go, which we've talked about, is extremely surprising. And it generated about 25 percent more revenue than its previous peak in 2006 in August. So that was when it properly peaked. And that's an augmented reality and falls into the exile or the extended reality revenue stream. For console it was Call of duty, modern warfare. No real surprises there. You know, one of the biggest games happening at the moment and in Pc it was fall guys, I don't know if you guys have ever heard of four guys So it's a party game at the highest launch of any PC title since Overwatch in May of 2016 with one hundred and eighty five million dollars. And it has two million paid players for the PC version and generates pretty large viewership on Twitch, peaking around seven hundred nine thousand viewers for the month of people watching people play for guys. So it's basically it's a party game where you've got to get to the other side and throw an obstacle course sort of thinking. It's a bit difficult to explain how it works, but it's a quite a popular game now. [00:25:25][65.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:25:26] Well, I'm keen to talk about Twitch a little bit later because I think it's a fascinating phenomenon that a lot of people who aren't, you know, really interested in video games are playing. A lot of video games may not be familiar with just how many people are watching other people play. [00:25:40][14.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:25:41] Why don't we talk about it right now? Well, just before we get there, all of these giving us a list of the top 10 grossing titles for each of these categories, console, PC and mobile. And what really strikes me is that there are obviously some new games in there. You know, all of you were just talking about four guys being the number one for PC. But there's a lot of games in there that aren't actually that new like Grand Theft Auto five is number four for consoles. And it was released, what, five years ago? Six years ago now. [00:26:10][29.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:26:11] Yeah. And it's still up there. Yeah. [00:26:13][2.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:26:14] Some of these games have pretty incredible staying power. [00:26:16][2.7]

Ollie Powell: [00:26:17] Well, if you have a look at number eight on the PC, that's Counterstrike Global Offensive that was released. I don't even like I've been playing that since I was in grade nine. [00:26:24][7.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:26:25] Wow. Wow. They've got all this. I loved it. [00:26:30][4.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:26:30] The difference between a good quality game and the mid-range is maybe so vast as well that. [00:26:35][4.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:26:35] Yeah, well, for me, it just it explains why the industry moved to micro transactions, because these games, if you were just paying for the title when you bought it and that was that these games just couldn't be that high. But the fact that, you know, they've got this recurring revenue stream through micro transactions gives them incredible staying. [00:26:53][17.8]

Bryce Leske: [00:26:54] True, true. They just keep on plugging away. [00:26:56][2.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:26:56] Yeah. Yeah. [00:26:57][0.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:26:57] They're not forced to bring out a new title. [00:26:59][1.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:26:59] Yeah, yeah. The thing is, triple-A games like you call the duties and your faith as they come out with new titles pretty much year on year, and that's how they make their money. But Legal Legends has been around for many, many, many years. And so it's counterstrike. It's a bit sticky. The game, if you think about sort of like sticky industries and like software as a service, how when a business has what it was, Salesforce, what you guys are talking about, sticky with the video games. People have invested so much money and time into these games that they don't want to move to a new title because they've got hundreds, hundreds of dollars worth of cosmetic items in the game that mean nothing changes in hours. [00:27:38][38.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:27:39] So they're not going to do it. [00:27:40][1.9]

Ollie Powell: [00:27:41] Oh, look, I. I feel like I'm going to incriminate myself here a bit. But let's just say that my hours in counterstrike are above 2000. [00:27:48][6.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:27:49] So I started by one [00:27:51][2.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:27:52] of our mates during his year 12 exams, ended up finishing World of Warcraft at the end of school, having played the equivalent of 365. Bryce worth of World of Warcraft, [00:28:02][10.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:28:03] what he was [00:28:03][0.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:28:04] playing like nine, nine, nine or 10 hours a day during the HSC. [00:28:06][2.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:28:07] Wow. Yeah, ridiculous. Anyway, technically [00:28:11][4.0]

Bryce Leske: [00:28:12] classified as an expert. But anyway, let's move on. One of the components of the breakdown of revenue that you spoke about was the viewing video games, which I found interesting, that kind of fit within this whole industry. But it makes sense. So and to Ren point, that is predominantly, I would imagine, Twitch and I guess there's some YouTube going on as well. But do you want to sort of run us through this component of the industry? What's going on? What are the trends? [00:28:36][24.2]

Ollie Powell: [00:28:37] Yeah, sure. So in twenty nineteen nine hundred and forty four million people watched worldwide on Twitch alone. [00:28:43][6.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:28:43] Wow. What. Nine hundred and forty four million. [00:28:45][2.1]

Ollie Powell: [00:28:46] Forty four million. [00:28:46][0.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:28:47] That's like 8th the world's population. [00:28:49][1.9]

Ollie Powell: [00:28:50] It's pretty impressive. And that's just watching people play video games. Obviously I'm not a hundred percent sure if those stats take into account things like if someone has like three computer, a laptop and a, you know, an iPhone. What does that mean? Three different views, but viewing a video game content can be done on a heap of different platforms, as you mentioned, as Twitch and YouTube. So Google owns YouTube and Amazon owns Twitch. [00:29:14][23.9]

Bryce Leske: [00:29:14] I didn't know Amazon on Twitter before. [00:29:16][1.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:29:17] Yeah, yeah. Just I was on that everywhere. [00:29:18][1.6]

Ollie Powell: [00:29:20] I know you thought you could get away with them with video games, but not there. Right there. [00:29:24][3.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:29:24] What is it that Twitch does that YouTube haven't been able to do? [00:29:27][2.5]

Ollie Powell: [00:29:28] It's just the stream streaming. Microsoft tried to get in there as well and they opened up Mixer and that was a platform and they tried to take the streamers. So that's your big asset, is the stream? Is there the people that people stick around and watch? So people like ninja and shroud those two were targeted by Mixer. [00:29:45][17.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:29:45] So I actually know Ninja because I'm a Detroit Lions fan in the NFL and ninja's like the number one ticket holder and not to him at games and stuff like that is the game on. He's a gamer. Yeah. [00:29:57][11.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:29:58] Yeah, I'm familiar with him. [00:30:00][1.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:30:00] Why couldn't YouTube? Because they do stream as well. I wonder why Twitch the twitch got the head start. [00:30:06][5.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:30:06] I think it's first mover advantage as well. Arguably YouTube was more the videos and, you know, watching a full video and the content like that. And Twitch was always set up as a live streams and in the industry and in like in the video games themselves, you always hear people talk about twitch streams. Everyone's like everyone wants to watch people on Twitch. Now, Twitch is signed back some of these dreamers on exclusive contracts so they can only stream on Twitch. So if you want their content, you have to go to Twitch, which makes sense why they're taking in most of that six point five billion in revenue being about twenty three percent. And that's an interesting actually, it says it generated about one point five, four billion and streaming twitch, but ad revenue and they made up eight percent of that. [00:30:49][43.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:30:50] Wow. Like, do people pay to watch the streams? Where's the other revenue coming from? [00:30:54][4.0]

Ollie Powell: [00:30:54] So I'm not sure exactly where, but my suspicion is that it would be paid because paid subscriptions are being on Twitch. You pay to subscribe to a channel and there's three, sometimes three different tiers of subscribers. So you've got your first tier and it's about five dollars a month. So it's a reoccurring it's a subscription thing. Then it's about I think they I think they will vary between the amounts. But sometimes you can get up to about one hundred dollars a month is streamers [00:31:20][25.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:31:22] we should be playing video games. [00:31:22][0.6]

Ollie Powell: [00:31:30] That's where they're earning it mostly. [00:31:31][1.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:31:32] Yeah. Right. So it'd be good to kind of start jumping into some of the companies. But before we do, it's worth I guess chatting about what is to come with this industry. You've sort of spoken about the growth to date, where the revenues coming from, but are you able to sort of shed any light on what we're going to be seeing in this space over the next few years? [00:31:52][19.8]

Ollie Powell: [00:31:53] Yeah, so there's been this shift. So just like Netflix revolutionized streaming of movies by saying that you pay a subscription fee and you can have access to a bunch of different movies, video games, they're trying to change into that. They're trying to say that you pay a subscription fee and you have access to these games and then you can pay them whatever you want and you get the latest and you can get new games as they come out, more of a subscription based model rather than, you know, micro transactions. So Google's got I don't know how to say this. I think it's STADIO and Xbox game past some new services that give gamers access to popular on demand titles on matchday. So when they launch, you get access to them because that's one thing. It's everyone wants to play the newest game and it's when it's hyped up, you want to get access to it. So in twenty nineteen that revenue is at seven hundred and eighty four million and it's estimated in twenty twenty to be about one point one five billion. So that's about a forty seven percent increase from last year to this year just on subscriptions. So that's where the revenue will be coming from in the future. And there's a bunch of new ones for the gaming companies and all the different manufacturers of consoles have. And getting in on this thing that you pay a subscription fee, so PlayStation and Xbox have about ten dollars a month service where it's a prerequisite to actually have to play online, but you can get access to some titles and things like that. And Nintendo is jumping in there. And obviously Amazon is as well calling it prime gaming. So if you have access to Amazon Prime, you could you get access to it anyway. So Amazon Prime is also get it link with your twitch. So when you watch strange yet in game drops, so like items in game from watching people play that game, that's a bit confusing, that statement, but that's where the revenue would be coming from. And mostly, again, more revenue coming from people watching. They think they'll be able to get over a billion unique views of people watching different platforms and things like that. [00:33:46][113.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:33:46] So what I'm taking from this is that the big tech companies are making a big play in this space. Xbox is owned by Microsoft. Google is doing stadia. Amazon owns Twitch and is doing Amazon gaming. And so it feels like a lot of the I guess like distribution of games and access to online is being sucked into these big companies on the flip side. All I'm thinking is like EB games and like those gaming retailers I buy, they must be in a world of hurt at the moment. [00:34:16][30.0]

Ollie Powell: [00:34:17] Yeah, I haven't looked into EB games. It's kind of hard to find Australian sources about this, but GameStop in the US is pretty much your equivalent and they've been experiencing some pretty terrible results recently just because of all this. It's pretty hard to find all that information. And I don't know their exact numbers, but they've been declining on the back of people going online and grabbing it off the Internet because it's so much easier to download it from the comfort of your home, then go out and buy it. [00:34:44][26.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:34:44] Well, speaking of companies, let's dig into the juicy parts. But before we do, we will take an ad break to hear from our sponsors and then get stuck into it. Nice. OK. So it is time to jump in to, as I said, the juicy part of the conversation, which is exploring, if you are interested in this industry, how can you get involved as an investor? And before the outbreak that Alec mentioned, a number of the big tech players are obviously in this space. You've got your Microsoft, Amazon, Google. But there are a number of other big players that are also active in this space. Do you want to give us a bit of a rundown on some of the major companies that are investable and perhaps any sort of headline stats that you're finding interesting? [00:35:26][41.8]

Ollie Powell: [00:35:27] One of the biggest companies is Tencent Tencent, the Hong Kong based tech company. I recall Christopher Joye talking quite heavily in depth about China and about that company in particular, the massive, that just massive, and they dwarf pretty much everyone else in this space. So some of the other big players are Sony, Apple, Microsoft, Nintendo and Activision. But in 2017, Tencent made eighteen point one billion dollars of video game revenue compared to Sony, who was in number two at ten point five billion. So that's quite a significant difference between number one and number two. Yeah, and it just seems like Tencent just dominates this whole area and they just do it by owning subsidiaries in pretty much everything that's popular. So they've got 100 percent ownership of right games. So they have games such as the League of Legends, which has been a popular title for ages. And it's you know, it's World Series, which is its online sport, topped four million active viewers for the final game. And that's excluding Chinese viewers. When you include the Chinese platforms, it peaked at 44 million. [00:36:32][65.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:36:32] Wow. Wow. [00:36:34][1.9]

Ollie Powell: [00:36:35] And that was in that was just a nineteen, I think 20, 20 had a bit of a dip on that. But that's just insane. How many people are actually watching these video games? And that's Tencent is making absolute Bankoff that. And so a twitch actually, because like all these people watching on Twitch as well. And that's because the League of Legends has a bass player base in 2014 of 67 million players monthly, which is now in 2000 or was in 2019, up to 80 million monthly. So that's people that are logging in implying that's just mind blowing and that's all. Tencent, which also owns 40 percent in epic games. So Fortnight and The Unreal Game Engine. Anyone that's done anything to do with building games, you know, The Unreal is a pretty big game building platform. They've got eighty four percent and a company called Supercell, which makes Clash of clans 80 percent in grinding gear games, which does path of XOL, five percent in Activision and Blizzard. So that's Call of Duty and World of Warcraft and overwatched and Starcraft and Hearthstone and then one point five percent in Blue Hole, which is pobjie or player unknown's battlegrounds. And they also made the mobile version of that game, which is one of the top mobile games. I think if I recall correctly, it's in the top 10 at least. But yeah, they've also got capital. They haven't disclosed how much in it. So true in every pie, [00:37:56][80.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:37:56] apparently Ren it's going to IPO in twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two. So maybe we'll be able to find out how much Tencent owns. [00:38:02][5.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:38:02] So it seems pretty clear that obviously Tencent is the major player in the actual gaming space. But to use Ren analogy of if you don't want to invest in the gold mine, you buy the picks and [00:38:15][12.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:38:15] shovels plus plus [00:38:18][2.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:38:18] people made more money in a gold rush, selling picks and shovels. The money [00:38:22][3.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:38:22] for gold. There we go. [00:38:23][0.8]

Bryce Leske: [00:38:23] What other companies could you invest in that sort of touch on the gaming industry [00:38:29][5.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:38:29] just so people can help conceptualize the ecosystem? Maybe if you can talk about it through, like, the different category. So, you know, we've touched on game makers. There are console makers. There are people that distribute games than people that, you know, provide access to watching them. So maybe if we go category by category and you kind of give us an overview of the ecosystem, the different elements in it, and then some of the companies in each of those. [00:38:53][23.2]

Ollie Powell: [00:38:53] Yeah, sure. So Microsoft does Xbox. So the Xbox consoles itself, which hasn't released the newest one, is Series X, and it's meant to release in November this year. You can either invest in Microsoft or we can go one step back now and you can go into the chip makers. So these are the people that make the microchips that go inside of these consoles. A lot of that's internally done. But AMD makes the CPU and the graphics units for pretty much all of these. They do both Microsoft and Sony. Sony does the PlayStation. So if you want to get into the chip makers, so the people that really make these consoles work, then you can buy into AMD, which is Advanced Micro Devices that's traded on the US Stock Exchange. I think it's Nasdaq. I don't know which one it is. It's the New York and Nasdaq. And then people that are playing video games on personal computers build some pretty exceptional rigs. [00:39:44][50.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:39:44] Yeah, some of the stuff I do. [00:39:46][1.9]

Ollie Powell: [00:39:47] Yeah, it's while they've got they spend a lot of money, they make it's light up. It's all colorful. It's a bit, you know, it's like how you got it. [00:39:53][6.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:39:54] There you go. [00:39:54][1.0]

Ollie Powell: [00:39:55] And it's so the video does the GPS, so the graphics processing cards on those and they've they actually snuck in the newest cards recently to sort of be just before the console releases to sort of grab some market share of the consoles and release these cards that are two times better than the previous cards on a spec basis. They just operate much better than what the old cards used to. So the chip makers are a really important part of that. Otherwise into live streaming. And if you want to get into the live streaming side of it, unfortunately, you can't really go any deeper than the actual platforms themselves. You can't really invest unless you're a very wealthy individual into the actual person or the main asset being the streamer. But you can get into Amazon and Google if you want to get access to the platforms themselves. So Twitch and YouTube. Other than that, though, you're pretty much stuck as Amazon's go to a lot of other revenue sources and at Google. So you don't really have much choice in being able to get exposed to that. [00:40:54][58.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:40:54] That's awesome. [00:40:54][0.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:40:55] If we just summarize the different companies in the different parts of the ecosystem so you can invest in the components that go into these that make gaming possible. And the main one that you talked about, there was microchips. So that I am Day and Invidia. Then the consoles themselves and the main two consoles are Xbox, which is owned by Microsoft and then PlayStation, which is owned by Sony. I guess you could also, you know, if mobile gaming is the biggest part of the industry, you could also look at, you know, the makers of mobile phones and the makers of PCs for PC gaming. So that's probably the second part of the ecosystem. Then there's the games makers themselves. And so that's Tencent. You mentioned Activision Blizzard is traded on the Nasdaq Electronic Arts, which does AAA games, is probably the other big one. I'm sure there's heaps more that I'm not listing. Then we touched on distribution of gaming before and that, you know, GameStop and EB games are no longer the key distributors, but instead it's looks like it's going to be Google with the Stadia product and Microsoft with the game parts product Steam that [00:42:01][65.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:42:01] is that still there? [00:42:02][0.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:42:03] Yeah, it's massive. Do you know who owns that? [00:42:05][2.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:42:06] Yes. A valve is it's a privately held by a man called Gapen is actually a pretty big name, I guess, in the gaming industry, like you hear him being quite heavily, but I'm sure he's an extremely wealthy individual. So value only Afterpay. [00:42:20][14.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:42:21] Yeah. So Valvo time and this guy, he might be a name, but I'm sure he's doing very well for himself, so he probably gets the last [00:42:28][6.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:42:28] laugh in that one. [00:42:29][0.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:42:32] And so then if I just finish my summary, so that's the main distribution and then the last part of it is how people watch other gamers. And then as you said, the main to Twitch, which is owned by Amazon and YouTube, which is owned by Google. So I mean, for me, it's really the big tech players seem to be the biggest players in this industry. But, you know, as you were saying earlier, it's like if you want to invest in the gaming components of these big tech companies, you can't separate them from, you know, the search engine business of Google or the retail business of Amazon or something like that. [00:43:05][33.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:43:06] One subsector that is not mentioned here is the caffeine industry. [00:43:09][2.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:43:09] Red Bull. Yeah, I just get pumped [00:43:13][3.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:43:13] in the car industry. [00:43:14][0.5]

Ollie Powell: [00:43:16] They did. I think actually Red Bull sponsors a lot of the counterstrike. [00:43:18][2.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:43:20] Oh, yeah, a lot of the counterstrike tournaments. [00:43:21][1.6]

Ollie Powell: [00:43:22] So you see the players walking off and being able to get some free Red Bull on their way out or, you know, reffing the Red Bull brand across their shirt. So Red Bulls already try to wave their little mitts into [00:43:35][12.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:43:35] this one as well. So only the close to close [00:43:38][2.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:43:38] this convo out. And it has been an awesome sort of deep dove. We've spoken about the individual companies that you can invest in. But again, if you're at the start of your investing journey and you don't want to have to go out and choose between Tencent and Apple and, you know, Microsoft and Sony, whatever it may be, I'm sure there are a number of ETFs that are out there and available to get exposure to a number of these companies. And you spoke about at the start of the show, ASPO Expo, which is listed on the Australian Stock Exchange. I think it's the only one that is listed here in Australia that will give you access. I know there are a number overseas to just want to give us a sort of quick debrief on some of the main ETFs that are available and the exposure that you can get. [00:44:19][41.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:44:20] Yeah, sure. So on the ASX, they've got ASPO and it's also traded on the Nasdaq under the exact same ticker and it's the exact same thing except us. And it's been trading for a bit longer. One thing I noticed is that when I was in the Facebook page, I saw a lot of people asking why Microsoft and Apple aren't in any of these ETFs if they make up such a large portion of the industry. And the thing is, just because they have, you can't really separate their as we were saying before, you can't separate that gaming sector income from their other income. So if you put them in the ETF, you would inadvertently be tracking something else. It wouldn't be a. It's about gaming's, which is something I just thought about when I saw some questions on the Facebook page, but the first one there is the ASX ASPO. So that one they target is to invest into the largest and most liquid companies involved in video game development and sports and related hardware and software. Globally, they've got a pretty low management, five point five five percent, and that's actually pretty much on par with everyone else. It's the highest, but the next, like everyone else, is zero point five. So, you know, it's not too much. They've only got twenty five holdings, so it's quite small and they only came in and quite recently. So they haven't actually got much data on their returns, but they've got net assets of about 16 million and they're benchmarked against this global video gaming and eSports index. That index is crazy. It's up four hundred and ninety six per cent since inception in January of 2014, [00:45:44][84.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:45:46] just like that's [00:45:47][1.4]

Ollie Powell: [00:45:49] one hundred and eighteen percent in three years like that abnormal growth. [00:45:53][3.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:45:54] So Ali, that is the Aussie one ASX ASPO. Are there any overseas ETFs available that give access to this industry. [00:46:02][8.5]

Ollie Powell: [00:46:04] Yeah. So on the Nasdaq there's the complete same one, the same, except it has a lower management fee of five per cent per annum, the exact same number of holdings it's have a year to date return of sixty two and a half percent. And it's just going to, it's a lot bigger. It's five hundred and twenty million in assets, but it's pretty much identical between the Australian version. Otherwise you've got global equities traded on the Nasdaq called a hero and it seeks to invest in companies that develop a published video games as well. But it also talks that facilitate the streaming and distribution of video game and EA Sports content within competitive sports leagues or produce hardware used in video games and sports, including augmented reality and virtual reality. That one's got a management fee of half cent, but it's got 40 holdings. So it's a bit larger, a bit better, sixty five point seven percent. But that's pretty much the same. But it's only got three hundred and fifty million in assets. Interestingly, that ETF doesn't hold Tencent or AMD at all and it's pretty silent as to why I would just be. I'm kind of confused. I couldn't figure out why, but apparently they don't hold Tencent, which is the biggest company [00:47:06][62.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:47:08] that is trying to fight. Yeah, yeah. [00:47:11][2.7]

Ollie Powell: [00:47:12] But Ragnhild Investments also has one page on the New York Stock Exchange, and it's got the ticket node, which [00:47:18][5.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:47:19] is nice, [00:47:20][1.3]

Ollie Powell: [00:47:21] and it does the same thing. It just off as retail and institutional investors, exposure to eSports and digital entertainment closely corresponding to the index called the nerd index. So they've got a management fee of half percent as well, only thirty two holdings, but they've had a year to date return of fifty percent and three hundred and fifty million in assets. There's Tencent in this one, but no chip makers are not a video name day, which again I find a bit strange because they talk about providing some exposure to eSports into digital entertainment, which has to be made on those chips. But, you know, it just seems like everyone has a different definition of, well, gaming. [00:47:57][35.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:47:57] Yeah. So I think that that's a really important point when we're talking about ETFs that nominally track the same industry, that they are always going to be a few slight differences. And it's important that people jump onto the relevant websites and look at the holdings, because if Tencent is going to be the biggest driver of, you know, new games and all that stuff, and then you think you've got exposure to them through the ETF, it would be very disappointing for you to find out that you've chosen one that doesn't have it. So it's an important reminder for us and for everyone listening to jump online and actually see what the holdings are in the ETF and make sure you're finding one that has what you want in it. [00:48:36][39.1]

Bryce Leske: [00:48:37] So only that brings us to the end of our deep dove into the video game industry. Massive. Thank you. I think it was an awesome job. I thoroughly enjoyed that. Learn a whole heap of stuff that I didn't know about the gaming industry. It was very clear to understand and has given some really, I guess, clear next steps or companies and ETFs, if you want to get involved in that sort of industry, to go and have a bit of further research and think about how they might play a part in your portfolio. So massive. Thank you. As I said. And look, hopefully it encourages others to come in and do the same, share this sort of passion. But big. Thank you. [00:49:12][35.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:13] I've got a question for you without notice, as you know. Well, as you may know, we're doing an Equity Mates hypothetical portfolio and we always like to crowdsource ideas for the watch list. So of all the companies that you looked at as part of this deep dove, if you were just going to add one to the watch list. Now, this isn't a buy recommendation or anything like that, but just one that we should be watching. What would the one company be? [00:49:36][23.1]

Ollie Powell: [00:49:36] If you'd asked me a couple of weeks ago, I would have said the chip makers, but they've gone on an absolute tear and they're worth a fortune. You're not going to let me put an ETF in there. [00:49:44][8.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:45] I do it. You can you [00:49:47][2.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:47] can put an ETF in there for sure. [00:49:48][1.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:48] Yeah. [00:49:48][0.0]

Ollie Powell: [00:49:50] I would firstly recommend the ASX one. Well, not recommend. Because that would get me in some legal trouble. [00:49:54][4.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:57] No, nothing. As part of this hypothetical portfolio was ever a recommendation. It's all just a learning experience. [00:50:03][6.1]

Ollie Powell: [00:50:03] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the FBI, ATF would be that otherwise, 10 cent, if you're feeling a bit a bit risky. But yeah, let's go with the ATF, FBI. [00:50:12][8.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:50:13] And if people want to hear more about Tensen, our second interview with Chris Weldon, the Magellan portfolio manager, he brought us three stocks that he was watching over in his portfolio, and one of them was Tencent. So if people are interested in the video game industry now and want to, you know, keep listening to more content around some of these companies, that second interview we did with Chris Welden would be a good one to jump on and listen to. [00:50:37][24.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:50:38] Awesome. Well, Ali, if you don't mind, we would like to include your notes on the website so that people can get a little bit more information, if not all good. We can take that offline. So a massive thank you again. Can't thank you enough for being the first of our community to come on and do one of the deep dives. And if you are out there and would like to do one as well in any topic, whatever it may be, please hit us up at our email, Facebook, Instagram, whatever contact@equitymates.com is our email. And we can arrange to get you on the show to do exactly what Ollie just did. But Ollie huge respect and thank you. [00:51:13][35.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:51:13] Yeah. Big. Thank you, [00:51:14][0.7]

Ollie Powell: [00:51:15] Thanks so much, guys. It was an absolute pleasure to be able to share this. [00:51:15][0.0]

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