Buy or Sell: Adam Keily with Julian McCormack

Adam: [00:00:49] Hello and welcome. This is Buy or Sell coming to you from the no holds bar here at Equity Mates HQ. I am your host Adam Kiley. Regarded by many as one of the simplest minds in finance. Luckily for all of us, though, I'm joined by an expert to educate me and hopefully you on how they're thinking about stocks and the stocks they're thinking about. Now. If you want to deep dive, take a long walk on a short jetty. This is rapid fire, Buy or sell. We're going to rip through as many stocks as we can in the time we have, and we will be putting our money where our mouth is. You can follow each stock on the buy or sell tracker. Very fancy tracker. On the Equity Mate's website, you'll find everyone's picks there so you can see how they worked out. And today, I am thrilled to be joined by Julian McCormack, investment analyst at Platinum Asset Management. Hi, Julian. 

Julian: [00:01:38] Hi, Adam. How are you? 

Adam: [00:01:39] I'm doing very well, thank you. How are you?

Julian: [00:01:40] I'm awesome. Excellent. 

Adam: [00:01:42] Thanks for coming in. It's nice to be here in person. I'm usually doing this remotely. So this is the first in-person one. 

Julian: [00:01:47] It's nice of you to fly from Adelaide to talk to me. 

Adam: [00:01:50] I wouldn't have it any other way. Now, Julian, we are in the no holds bar. Of course. Before we get started, I want you to relax and settle in. It is the most stocked bar in the world. I'd like to offer you a drink in honour of the fact that we're talking about Tesla today. The signature cocktail this week is an Elon Island iced tea. We're talking off. What is your drink of choice? Julian, what's your beverage? Would you go to my. 

Julian: [00:02:20] I had a choice lined up. I think I've got to have one of those Elon Island eyes. 

Adam: [00:02:23] I got good black, very.

Julian: [00:02:25] Very pretty token. 

Adam: [00:02:26] It's a wild night. It's a wild ride on the island. 

Julian: [00:02:30] I do, I do have a great idea. I wouldn't mind, I'd like a martini, please. Miller's martini, a dry gin, no botanicals in it. Okay. Just straight out. 

Adam: [00:02:38] Straight up. Yeah.

Julian: [00:02:39] So, yeah, with some olives. Yeah, I have done that. He says shaken not stirred is. Yeah. Because if you shake it. You wouldn't stir it.

Adam: [00:02:49] Yeah.

Julian: [00:02:50] There's no point saying no sot. 

Adam: [00:02:51] There's an efficiency failure there.

Julian: [00:02:54] Just checking the place. So not shaken. 

Adam: [00:02:58] Not Shaken at all. All right. Excellent. Well, there we go. Enjoy your martini? I think I'll have a martini as well. Yeah. 

Julian: [00:03:05] One Up.

Adam: [00:03:05] Please. All right. We got a lot of stock to get through. Some interesting picks. I gotta say, some of these companies I have heard of, others I have never heard of before. So I'm really looking forward to this one. And we're going to start with Interglobe Aviation Limited, NASA, which is the Indian Stock exchange. Stock code Indigo. Indigo, currently trading at ₹3,042. I had a quick look at their website. I do my research scheduling. And they say we have a simple philosophy. Offer fares that are affordable, flights that are on time and provide courteous and hassle free travel experience. I did want to know, do you think that would ever work in Australia.

Julian: [00:03:44] And work if anyone tried it, wouldn't that? If we didn't have just a Tyler Wright Oligopoly? It gets bailed out every, you know, few years. Yeah I'm sorry, sorry. 

Adam: [00:03:56] Anyway, so, buy or sell for you.

Julian: [00:04:00] Hard buy.

Adam: [00:04:00] Right. What do you like about it? 

Julian: [00:04:01] It's about the fastest growing airline in the world. Pretty good returns on capital. So mid-teens returns on capital and growing at, like 15 to 20% compound. Just monotonically. Like, if you actually look at it from three years ago to today, it's growing at like 65% soaring per year. But the Covid. Remember that whole company. So not really call it sort of 15 to 20% normalised growth right. And it's a good play on the Indian consumer without having to pay the kind of multiples that are on offer on the Sensex for Indian consumer stocks. So if you want to go and buy a good Indian consumer company like Godrej or Hindustan Unilever or Colgate Palmolive India, or one of those really good ones is going to be 50 times earnings. 

Adam: [00:04:46] Yeah. Okay. 

Julian: [00:04:47] Right. For good growers for 15 to 20% growers. And good returns on capital. But you're really paying. So for this very very good airline. We're paying about 18 times more for an airline. But in the context of India that's pretty cheap right. 

Adam: [00:05:03] And Indians flying more like is, is that is that a. 

Julian: [00:05:06] Ratcheting. Just growing where like 15 to 24% year on year. So this is the low cost domestic airline as well as and it's something like a 55. 

Adam: [00:05:17] It's the bonds of India.

Julian: [00:05:19] It's a yeah that kind of thing. Spirit airlines are you, Tiger.

Adam: [00:05:23] Yeah. Yeah. Right. you know here's my money. Shut up and take my cash. But I think. 

Julian: [00:05:29] But it's a good airline. Go run. Yeah. 

Adam: [00:05:31] Well, that's the difference.

Julian: [00:05:32] Growing fast with population base. Yeah, that is just the norm. Ripping into travel. So. All right, this thing's really growing. 

Adam: [00:05:41] All right, next up, we have got Ero copper. Ero copper, New York stock exchange. ERO, Currently $16. 27. Julian, I hear there's a copper boom coming if not here already. And I'm not talking about a hot and police presence. Thank you. 

Julian: [00:05:59] You got me. Now you got me. I didn't expect that. 

Adam: [00:06:03] Buy or sell. 

Julian: [00:06:04] Buy.

Adam: [00:06:06] Because of the copper boom, we're having a copper boom. 

Julian: [00:06:09] Well, you wouldn't know it from the stocks. Yeah. So the interesting thing about copper is that the better the commodity is, because I never I don't know the reasons like the grades a lot. It's hard to get it out. It's really capital intensive blah blah blah. They're worse the equities because they are the guys who suffer from the low grades and the capital intensity. Yeah, no difficulty of operation. So it really is notable that with China, you know, in sort of the deepest recession of its modern era apart from the early 90s. So everyone forgets about China in the early 90s, they had a full banking crisis, inflation around 25%, coinciding roughly with Tiananmen Square as well. People were really, really, really jacked. Yeah, off in the early 90s in China. And so we're going through another one of those. So we've been here before, but even with that dynamic you've got copper at three bucks ID. That's pretty interesting. So if we get actual that sort of global synchronous growth type vibe that we had five years ago, copper is going to go mental. Mental, mental. But it's bloody hard to get this stuff out of the ground. Right. Because hey we've been mining copper for like 3000 years and we've picked off most of the good ones. So that's why this thing is quite special. So they've got good operating costs. They were sort of a buck 60 operating cost. I think they're going to say the copper prices are three and that their cash costs are about a buck 60. I think that's probably going to do about two bucks which is still okay. We're still making good margins. That's happening because there's a local smelter that's shut for now. And they have to ship this stuff offshore to smelt to refine and smelt. That'll drop back out. And they're more than doubling production with a project that's fully financed and is on time and on budget and 85% complete. So we're just about to go from around about 15 times earnings to around about five times earnings. Of course about three years. Yeah. These things don't trade on five times earnings I tried on 15 times earnings. Right. And I don't think this thing actually exists in three years. 

Adam: [00:08:08] Yeah okay. 

Julian: [00:08:08] Asset two in Brazil by the way. If I mentioned that and Brazil for people just need to remember Brazil was a very good mining jurisdiction. The two global super majors in iron ore that's in Brazil. So if you want to move dirt, they're pretty good at it okay. 

Adam: [00:08:27] All right. Excellent. All right. That's Ero copper. And that's a buy. Next up we are looking at H&M, the fashion retailer. Stock code  STO h m-b. So we're in Stockholm, of course. Right. Currently, 142 38 krona. [

Julian: [00:08:46] Get it out of here. Shake it out of here. Sell it. 

Adam: [00:08:50] Sell it. It's so if I remember, I remember. So I remember the first. The grand opening of the store in Adelaide was quite a big deal. And people lined up to get into H&M. Reminded me of. 

Julian: [00:09:01] 20 years ago. Right? Yeah. 

Adam: [00:09:02] No, no, no, this is Adelaide. So this was 2018. 

Julian: [00:09:05] Oh, shit. Sorry. 

Adam: [00:09:09] So H&M, that's a sell for you had you are having it. 

Julian: [00:09:12] So we've got around 5000 stores globally. And we are just getting flogged by the competition. So we were the disruptor. We, we were one of the inventors of fast fashion cycling, Inditex and H&M, a couple of other names in the 2000. And that's now being disrupted itself by Tamia and Cheyenne and Amazon and all that. So. So these guys are in big trouble. And they need to shrink and they need to shrink quickly. But the thing about these fast fashion things and basically most retailers, if they can do it in a sort of modular way. And roll out more and more and more and more outlets, they leverage their cost base. So one truck, simply put, can service six stores, not one. Okay. So as you roll out now do that in reverse. The exact reverse happens. Right. So these guys don't grow like they haven't grown the top line in sort of 4 or 5 years. The returns are diminishing pretty quickly. So they're pretty reasonable. So the return on equity top return on capital employed top business for a retailer sort of mid-tum.

Adam: [00:10:12] They have a lot of online. Like is is online good for them. I mean you mentioned the other retailers Amazon and Teemo and others, the kind of almost exclusively online. Right.

Julian: [00:10:20] Absolutely exclusively. 

Adam: [00:10:21] Is that killing them the stock the footprint. 

Julian: [00:10:23] Yep. So you have to to double. Yeah. Not quite a cost base to keep your business. Yeah. Okay. So it doesn't work very well for most. It's worked okay for Walmart. They're doing a good job with it. Yeah. Right. but must really struggle with it. You know, you just need to think about David Jones in, in this country to have an analogue for what that looks like. Yeah. Globally. 

Adam: [00:10:41] We had our first store opened last year, actually David Jones. 

Julian: [00:10:44] Are you telling me again? I say, what, 20 years ago, 160 years ago? So H&M to sell. 

Adam: [00:10:55] All right, next up, we are heading to Frankfurt, the Frankfurt stock Exchange. We're looking at Stabilus. Stock code ETR STM currently 62, €35. They seem to be hitting their stride, getting a good strut going. If I could, I could please use that. Fun. Julian. Julian Stabler's, he's had a buy or sell as a buy. 

Julian: [00:11:19] It's a buy. 

Adam: [00:11:20] What do they do?

Julian: [00:11:20] So you know those things in your, in your boot when the car opens? The gas spring, the gas leak. They invented that, right? So they invented that, like a hundred years ago. This is a really high quality German industrial. That's been doing gas springs and dampers and stabilisation stuff in industrial and auto stuff forever. And now they're beginning to broaden out into inputs to factory automation. So factory automation vibration is a big deal. So they have this whole growth like that. The market isn't really paying them for. This is like 16%.

Adam: [00:11:52] So just know that vibration is a big deal right. Y 

Julian: [00:11:55] So controlling vibration in a precision machine tool is really, really important. And so this thing looks like it can exist. 

Adam: [00:12:02] Don't even think about trying to be addressed. So I've got machines that build things and then you think of course they need to be stable. 

Julian: [00:12:08] Yeah. Yeah. So this has his whole. The other guy's like that might work for it. As it stands, it's okay. So auto supply is a tough business. Like so when you sell to an automaker, they take price off you every year and blah, blah, blah, so that this company does that very, very well. and and also maybe so just on the basis of that. Sort of low teens or 12 ish pay a growing earnings at 10 to 15 with a 16 ish percent return on equity and return on capital. That's pretty pretty ritzy. And there are a few of these little auto input businesses that are reasonably good. They're not awesome businesses by any means. They're pretty capital intensive. And you're dealing with some big brutes. You know, auto OEMs. And also there's some risk that stable is just enjoy this quite big volume growth in autos. 

Adam: [00:13:00] And I feel like there's untapped potential there. They've got boots, they've got bonnets. But no one's done anything about the doors yet. And my kids jam their fingers in the door. Oh that's an alarming regularity. 

Julian: [00:13:09] Oh that's bad. 

Adam: [00:13:10] Why do we not have soft closed doors? 

Julian: [00:13:11] That's interesting. I never really thought about that. 

Adam: [00:13:13] Why don't we? 

Julian: [00:13:14] Yeah. Get them on this. Okay. 

Adam: [00:13:15] Someone gets a lot. Oh, yeah. We back in a minute. 

Julian: [00:13:18] You've got heaps of business today. 

Adam: [00:13:22] All right, so Stabilus is a buy. Next. Staying with cars. Toyota motor Corp, new York Stock Exchange TM currently trading at $227. 36. I saw they were under five for collecting data on people's driving habits, among other things. Well, yeah. Exactly right. 

Julian: [00:13:44] If you can't trust Toyota. Hey, can you trust I love Toyota? Don't worry about it. Yeah. 

Adam: [00:13:47] They do seem like a company. I'd be happy to hand over my privacy related information. So for some reason, I don't know why they're. I just have built that that trustworthy brand, haven't they? All right. Buy or sell Toyota. I sounds like obviously. 

Julian: [00:14:00] Buy all out.

Adam: [00:14:01] Okay. Right.

Julian: [00:14:03] So go back, I don't know, 4 or 5 years, everyone knew that Toyota was a real loser and a dog. Yeah. And Elon Musk. Oh, you know, very, hydrogen's bullshit. And so, yeah, it doesn't work that, and Toyota was just sitting there going, look, mate, we'll get to EVs. They're not a good mass market solution. The customer isn't going to pay for them. So you're going to rely on government subsidies? By the way, we invented the hybrid. Yeah, yeah. So we kind of know a little bit about electrifying the drivetrain in a modern context. We did it. Yeah.

Adam: [00:14:31] First it feels like like Elon Musk is kind of mansplaining like electric cars to the. 

Julian: [00:14:38] To the Japanese very politely. 

Adam: [00:14:40] Yeah. They don't want to offend. So it just kind of like yeah that's that's interesting. You build an electric car so good.

Julian: [00:14:46] Yeah. Yeah. So that basic premise is proven right. So there's sort of just, just the, the bloom coming off the rise right in, in the last couple of years or year or whatever around EVs is sort of bearing out what, what Toyota has been saying at the same time is they're now getting really serious about electrification. They're also probably, so we met with him in December. We reckon they're probably about to roll out a plug in hybrid series of models globally. Possibly along the lines of BYD. So BYD's dominance domestically is, you know, partially built on them doing really good plug in hybrids. And, and the plug-in hybrid used to be a full drive, you know, cut down drive time. But it's pretty much a full drive time with guys in it plus an EV. Yeah. So you had two cars with two.

Adam: [00:15:38] What a deal.

Julian: [00:15:38] Great and BYD, which is one of the best industrial companies in the world. Toyota learned from them. And so what BYD you did in their DMI engine series is do like just just no gear top, car with a battery. So it's like a car with a range extender, almost. If you say that to BYD or any of the auto, I said, no, it's not a range extender, but it kind of is. So there's no gears in it. It just kicks in at a high gear or ology where you as the automaker want to do it. Or you have a battery. Yeah. So that's super simple. Much, much more simple than what everyone was trying to do before they did it. And Toyota looks like they're probably going to do that as well right. So now we'll have and they're doing battery EVs as well. And that they are very, very serious about solid state. BYD will beat them to solid state by design. They'll have solid state. So solid state lithium ion batteries. So no wet electrolyte. So don't blow up. 

Adam: [00:16:36] Oh that's handy.

Julian: [00:16:36] That's buddy handy. That's helpful. So then you take out a lot of the battery management system. You take out a lot of the stuff that prevents the batteries blowing out

Adam: [00:16:44] Exploding things. 

Julian: [00:16:45] Yeah.Exploding things are not great. This is a bad, crazy day. 

Adam: [00:16:50] You thought cheap struts were bad, right? Wait for your battery to explode.

Julian: [00:16:55] Well look. We have to recall cars and we barbecue to family. So just as the Indian stock market's been great, the Japanese stock market has been awesome. In yen, something great in dollars again. Could do it. But, you know, we can lay off the ends. That's fun. But that is being traded like. Well, all it is is them, you know, paying DBS out to shareholders. We think it's something massively more than that in Japan. They're now ferociously competitive in terms of unit cost of labour. They will have about the lowest cost power in the industrial world once they restart their full nuclear fleet, which they will do. They are very serious about hydrogen. So they will have nukes in the hydrogen and they'll decarbonise cheaper and better than everyone else. So this is one of these big changes in industrial systems globally. That looks pretty pretty interesting. 

Adam: [00:17:47] All right. We got to take a break there. Get a word from this week's sponsor. Grab another cocktail and we'll be back with more buy or sell right after this. Welcome back. You're listening to Buy or Sell. Coming to you from the no holds bar. My expert today is Julian McCormick, investment analyst at Platinum Asset Management. Julian, we've got through five stocks already. Let's keep going with China Resources Land Limited. Hong Kong 1109 is the stock ticker. Currently $24.90. I did some research, 420,000 employees. That's some Christmas party. What's the venue this year? Taylor Swift style. And immediately following Taylor, we've got the China Resources Land. Miss Soiree. Yeah. China resources land. Buy or sell for you.

Julian: [00:18:45] It's a buy. It's a it's a really controversial one, but. Okay, so it's a Chinese property developer. And everyone will know the sort of property sector woes that are going on, but I just ask people to look at the track record it's business. It was it was listed in 96, I think, from memory listed at a, you know, pretty penny and then sold off pretty hard. So if you look at it from 2000 on, it's about a 70 bagger. Yeah. Total shareholder return. So in terms of track record, this is exceptional. This company's really exceptional at what it does. It does, it does. Okay. Quality housing. Steady, steady. With a set of 3 to 4 year land bank ahead of it. Gravitated to sort of tier 2 to 4 cities and is beginning to look back at the big cities now because they can they can keeps on setting, revenue and earnings. Well, revenue, they have some write offs, but revenue records and the whole crackdown on the fly by night, highly indebted developer model. Really. So to them, any company with China in the name is basically a start out enterprise. It's very difficult to call yourself China. Anything. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So it's very auspicious to China. Something. China resources. Land. China resources. What? What is a guess? Whatever. So this is one of those what we hear not having great data on it in in China, which is its own, you know, foible of the system. But XI Jinping is hugely popular. Massively popular. Right. Is he popular with the people who write, you know, blogs and newspaper articles? No. Right. No. Is he popular with people whose livelihoods he's cutting off because he's saying, you can't. No, no, because, yeah, with the guy who is popular, this is the sort of 500 million migrant workers. They've been bumbling along, never, ever having a hope of buying a house. Right. So he's saying, I'm changing all that for you? I'm trying to balance that. This is like keeping the system solvent. Let's be careful. But I'm changing all that for you. Some of that's good and some of that's bad. But on balance you're probably doing a whole bunch of stuff that systemically is actually pretty stabilising. Like and I just know all your listeners. Oh that's bullshit Alan. Call it. Tell me the reverse of that. That's fine. Yeah, he could be right, I don't know. But I mean, we run $2 billion there, so we probably pay a bit of attention to it. Right. So more actually. Yeah. So we're pretty sure that this is a system that really has huge problems. And we know what they are. Right. Every system has problems. You tend to get into trouble when you don't know. You don't. 

Adam: [00:21:23] Yeah. The next one we're looking at is Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company Limited. New York Stock Exchange TSM $126.69. Fun fact these guys have their own museum, which I just learned the other day. 

Julian: [00:21:39] that's awesome. 

Adam: [00:21:40] Very hard to get in. Yeah. Huge demand over the years. I've shrunk it down. It fits on the side of the end of a pin tightly. 

Julian: [00:21:47] You have to be a nano. Yeah to attend. Yeah. 

Adam: [00:21:50] If you can get there though. It's amazing. Yeah. Julian, Taiwan semiconductor buy or sell.

Julian: [00:21:55] That's a buy. Yeah. So this is my one sort of not a tech craziness in this, you know, little mini portfolio. And we can get that for a pretty reasonable valuation. And it's an absolute dominant Market leader. So something like 80% of the high end chips in the world have TSMC gear in it. So they will have made it or some of it.

Adam: [00:22:16] And is the supply chain fixed now? Can we get chips and get everything that's all fixed. Yep. 

Julian: [00:22:21] There's this huge CapEx going in. So one of the critiques of this business would be it requires huge CapEx. Yeah. So that's fair. But again, we're doing pretty high returns on capital. Yeah. And we're growing very fast. So we're going at 30s, 20% returns on capital, massive moats. So no one gets close to us. No one gets close to us in what we do. Yeah. And all year, excitement about, or Nvidia or whatever, it's all, you know, Taiwan semi is just all over all of that. So. And we're getting that fright in times. You know, growing at sort of 25 to 30.

Adam: [00:23:00] Feels like a no brainer. 

Julian: [00:23:02] The problem was that. 

Adam: [00:23:04] These are the ones where you don't know what the problems are. 

Julian: [00:23:06] That's right. Oh, no. Oh, no. There's a coral reef beneath the ship. 

Adam: [00:23:12] Next up, we're looking at Nittetsu Mining Co Limited. Tokyo? 1515. Currently 5100 Japanese yen. Yep. Now, Nittetsu is mining and real estate. So, Monday to Thursday. They're mining tons of precious metals. But call us on Friday and we can set you up with one better in Parramatta.

Julian: [00:23:33] Nittetsu is a buy. Labour under no misapprehension. This is not a very good company. Okay. But we're getting it for free. But we're getting it for free. So if we look at the cash, the cross shareholdings in it, and the value of the, unimproved land on the balance sheet, the business is basically free. We also have an operating copper mine in Chile, and we're we're doubling production and have another one just beginning to be built now. So we've got the Atacama asset and we're building, Aguero's in Chile. And so that is fully funded. We also have we think they probably have access to very very low interest rate debt, which is a huge advantage versus other copper producers because I can borrow at the corporate level in Japan. And they have, you know, half their market cap or something in cash. So, you know, that's that's done. So that is, that's just one of these lovely sort of cigar butt type things in Japan that, ridiculously, ridiculously cheap. And it's a way to leverage copper without having to pay for it. 

Adam: [00:24:35] It's time for the last call. Last drinks. Tesla, Inc, Nasdaq. Tesla a $199.95. It's on sale. 199 95. Needs no introduction. Of course. A bit of a dip lately, but still up 15,000% all time. So if you got in early, you'd be pretty happy. Julian, buy or sell Tesla? 

Julian: [00:25:01] Sell. 

Adam: [00:25:03] Sorry. Toyota instead. 

Julian: [00:25:05] Probably buy Toyota instead. Or you could possibly buy BYD instead. 5050. But leaving Elon in this sort of histrionics out of it. We now just have a ferociously competitive landscape and not a very good model cycle ahead of us. So the Chinese have reinvented what EVs are. It's just super entertaining watching people say, you know, Tesla is doing all this and blah blah. And, you know, their rival be what they would do is like nearly twice the size. Like it's not even close. The Western commentators all just ignore the fact that they do plug in hybrid EVs. And say, well, that they're nearly neck and neck on battery. It's like. Okay. Cool. Thanks. Thanks for coming out. Doubled in size. Yeah. And they generate wads of cash. Right. And they are central to an industrial system that revolves around them. And by the way, what everyone thought would happen when Tesla went to China was, oh, the Chinese are going to steal their intellectual property. Not Tesla has become a Chinese company. And is now having to try to keep up with what's happening in China in EVs. And those exports are just going to explode. 

Adam: [00:26:17] Is the Tesla tech though more than the car. Like I've heard that argument that Tesla is not an automaker. It's a software company. And they've got all these smarts in the car, to the I mean the others presumably have the same sorts of things, but is it a platform in itself that potentially separates them from the BYD's or the Toyotas of the world? 

Julian: [00:26:37] No There's just no laid there at all. Yeah, this is Toyota. They probably are versus BYD arguably there is at like price levels. This is another China that is not even close. Yeah this is Nio or Xpeng. No way. No way like that. They're so much better. Yeah. So you just get in your car and you just say hey, whatever operating system. Can you order me dinner? I just stuff like that. It's like they're so much better. And the we had this, we had this Cambrian explosion in China in the auto industry at the same time as no one could visit it for three years. And so then the rest of the world has to now face up to. Oh, my God, that is the largest auto market in the world selling like it's 60% of the EV market globally. Soyou reckon that late it.

Adam: [00:27:29] I think they still copied. 

Julian: [00:27:32] BYD made just 3 million cars a year. So it's a big company. Yeah. Yeah. It's a serious company and it's coming. Yeah. But then you've got all of the other automakers also now rolling out all of their EV. Yeah. Things as well. Just at the same time as all the government enthusiasm for supporting EVs is seriously on the win.

Adam: [00:27:56] Thank you so much for coming in, Julian. You can continue the journey on the equity made website. There's plenty of resources there. You'll find a tracker for this show, along with the Find a Company page where you can get more info on each of the companies that we've talked about today. But again, I just want to say a big thank you, Julian. Lovely to meet you in person. I've been to a great show and really, really interesting stocks like I think yeah, we've done a few of these now and just a such a really tested my Excel skills with different currencies on the, on the tracking spreadsheet. 

Julian: [00:28:27] I put several minutes thought into this.

Adam: [00:28:30] It shows. It really shows. where can people usually find it? And if they're looking for more?

Julian: [00:28:39] I am on LinkedIn if you're, if you're if you want to go through a hashtag, just hashtag on it. Hashtag. You know. Yeah. If you want to do that yourself. But if you want more from platinum. Just, just platinum.com.au, you got a section on there called the channel. And look at Quarterlies actually try pretty hard to, to sort of be frank about what's going on the market. 

Adam: [00:29:00] Excellent. Awesome. Thank you so much. And thank you out there for joining us. I hope you'll join me next time to Buy or Sell, but until then, it is bye for now.