AFL legend Leigh Matthews on money and leadership

Bryce: [00:00:15] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast that follows our journey of investing, whether you're an absolute beginner or approaching Warren Buffett status. Our aim is to help break down your barriers from beginning to dividend. Now, if you have joined us for the very first time, welcome. Thank you for becoming an equity mate. If you are still getting up to speed with the basics, go and check out our Get Started Investing podcast. But without further ado, my name is Bryce. And as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy, Ren.

Alec: [00:00:41] How are you? I'm very good. Bryce excited for this episode. This is an interview we pre-recorded back at the end of last year and God, we were excited at the time. One of our nonfinancial heroes.]

Bryce: [00:00:54] One of our nonfinancial heroes, but a hero nonetheless. And it's actually come out at a pretty good time because the AFL season is now in full swing where 

Alec: [00:01:03] Some might say we planned it. Some may. 

Bryce: [00:01:05] I would like to think that we have that foresight. But yes, we sat down, we had the pleasure of sitting down at an event in Melbourne last year hosted by Owen Rask and Rask Australia. We sat down with Leigh Matthews, AFL legend Leigh Matthews to discuss. 

Alec: [00:01:22] Premiership winning player and coach Leigh Matthews. 

Bryce: [00:01:26] Yeah, to discuss money and leadership and how we can take some of the major lessons that Leigh learnt through his time coaching and playing AFL and developing players and building leadership styles and philosophies and how we can take that and approach it to our own money journey. So and so it was a fascinating interview. Some really, really good actionable insights came from this. From my point of view. I would love to hear your feedback and please do leave us a five star review on Spotify and Apple as well. So again, without further ado, here is our interview with the one and only Leigh Matthews. All right. Well, hello, everyone, and Happy Party shirt Fridays. We were really excited for this one. My name is Bryce. For those that haven't come across us before, I am the co-founder of Equity Mates Media. And just like many other podcasters in this room, our mission is to make investing accessible for very young Australians. And this is my co-host and co-founder as well, Ren. How you going, Ren?

Alec: [00:02:25] I I'm very good, Bryce very excited to be here for this live event. We had to wear party shirts. Owen is trying to make party shirts a thing in finance and in honour of him we had to wear two of his party shirts today, but shout out to Owen for organising this. The whole Rask Australia team is putting it on.

Bryce: [00:02:46] Yes. But look, we are incredibly excited because we have none other than AFL legend Leigh Matthews. Leigh, welcome.

Leigh: [00:02:54] Good evening, Bryce. Now, ASADA doubled down the night with more time in my life. I've been a fan for half an hour talking about that footy. What about the good and how did you do it with him. MCG was. 

Bryce: [00:03:07] I know. 

Alec: [00:03:07] On to this late, will be walking to the MCG and one was with him. MCG is following him. 

Bryce: [00:03:13] So we get to spend the next 20 minutes or so unpacking Leigh's experience with leadership and motivation discipline. And then there will be some opportunity for questions at the end. It's not often you get a chance to to speak with Leigh, so we'll make sure we leave time for that. But we must start with AFL and get that out of the road before we talk about the serious stuff. Right.

Alec: [00:03:34] AFL is the serious stuff.

Bryce: [00:03:35] That's faecal faecal. So we're going to do a quick fire for quick questions. Leigh. First one is the Flag for 2023. What's the point? 

Leigh: [00:03:42] f You start with easy questions. Yes, okay. Geelong finished as the best team, so I started crying. They might win the game. 

Bryce: [00:03:49] Nice. 

Alec: [00:03:50] Okay. Some Geelong fans in the audience. What about Wooden spoon.

Leigh: [00:03:55] Where North Melbourne were on the bottom at the end? I mean what you should know is what even last is not going to happen next year, to be honest. But let's say North Melbourne would finish bottom again. Pretty conservative and I know in my investigative theorising. 

Bryce: [00:04:09] Not a risk taker. 

Alec: [00:04:10] That's an important reminder. The past performance is not an indication of future performance. 

Bryce: [00:04:16] All right. So rumours of a new team coming in Tassie. Should we have a Tassie team? 

Leigh: [00:04:22] Well, Tasmania's been a state that's been in the AFL. That seems to be the main reason why Tassie should have a team. It's hard to answer it quickly. You hope if it comes in the only team really sports team in Australia that I'm aware of that the State Government, the State Government, the Tasmanian Government are putting in 12 million per year for 12 years to help the funding of the club and maybe provide a better stadium for that for them to play at. So it's a very different situation. But familiar, I don't I don't think we need a northern team in the competition or the 18 is plenty. Secondly, I hope Tasmania does come in which I think they will, that they are not one of the half the team that needs additional help from the AFL to stay viable. So I hope we'll see what happens, but I think that can be nice. 

Alec: [00:05:07] Well. Somehow I've managed to get the microphone caught. Will last. Quickfire question. I'm a Swans fan. Bryce is a Bombers fan. So self-indulgent. Who's going to finish high as swans or bombers? 

Leigh: [00:05:20] I'm a fan of Brad Scott. But I have To go for the Swans. 

Bryce: [00:05:27] Every interview we start with our experts. We ask them the story of their first investment. So we thought we'd start there. Your experiences in footy and AFL. But if you can shed some light on that moment in time where you deployed some capital in some form, what was it? What was the story? 

Leigh: [00:05:41] Would it be the first house way back for me in the early seventies? I immediately bought a block of land and built a house, so that would have been the first financial investment of about $5,000 back then. So that's a dozen times. Things change over time. 

Alec: [00:05:57] No one ask how much it's worth today. No one asked. All right. We'll leave from that moment to today. How do you think about investing now? Do you have an investing philosophy? 

Leigh: [00:06:10] Well, I'm 70 years of age. I'm getting towards the end of my work life. I still do a bit of media, so I still get paid to go to pay job. But capital preservation is my first priority at this part of my life. I'm a fairly logical person. Good. No match vision. I'm not. I'm a poor investor because I can't really visualise the future. So I tend to use people who have got that phone financial advisor for instance. So. So yeah, that's but capital preservation, I think at this part of my existence probably is the main thing. 

Alec: [00:06:42] Now Leigh owns said he would buy us to be if we could get a stock tip off for you and Bryce and I were putting our heads together and thinking how could we suddenly wave into the conversation something that would lead to a stock tip when things. I'm not subtle. Yeah, everything is show. That's why we're here. So I'm just going to ask you. You got to start this. What about sector logic? Logically, that tells me that we know that there's this hope that renewables are going to power the world over this next generation. Maybe they will, but it might be that you need something else. And and maybe for all its potential downsides, that nuclear might well be the baseload alternative. It seems logical to me to be. Think about I mean, anyone that's so maybe something in the uranium or the energy or the nuclear energy sector might be more.

Bryce: [00:07:32] Nice. Good point. All right. So as investors, one thing that we like to focus on is management and leadership qualities of the companies that we're investing in. Get an understanding of how they're thinking about the future, how they're thinking about taking risk, investing capital, those sorts of things. You've spent a lot of time in high-performance culture and developing leaders through teams and developing your own leadership philosophy as well. What are some of the key characteristics of good leaders that you've seen come through, players that you've coached, And also what are some of the characteristics that you personally hold for your own leadership philosophy?

Leigh: [00:08:11] Well, let them be good salespeople, really, because it doesn't matter whether you're a manager or a coach, it doesn't matter what your title is. You're selling to your group. Your philosophy is in a way, this is what we want you to do for us to be successful. The other part of that philosophy is that individuals don't sacrifice for groups, but we talk about investment, I guess, in terms of financial. But in the little world that I've been involved in most of my life, the AFL will make each individual player wants to be really successful deep down in his soul. He probably wants to be based on Grand more than his team winning deep down. But you learn that investing in the team cause and making the team better. You get your rewards. Like in our sport, you know, you come off the ground, you feel good about yourself, you sing the song in the rooms, you have a you have an emotional appeal that really doesn't exist anywhere else in the world that I've been involved in might only last for a few minutes or half an hour or something. So that investment in the team, but it has to be win win. So the manager coach has to convince individuals you'll be better if we do ABC and, and the role playing mantra mantra that we need you to do to make your role within the team it's most valuable. Will you get to sell it? You've got to convince them and then acknowledge their work in it. At the end of the process, which is probably in the footy world every Monday. 

Bryce: [00:09:34] You should say the emotional upper we get when our portfolios turn green is pretty good. Who would be some of the best leaders that you had in your time from a football point of view. 

Leigh: [00:09:47] Well, I look way, way back when I first started, I went to Hawthorn as a 17 year old young man and when you're young, you are kind of there for it to be moulded, I guess, by what you see. And we had a coach back in the part time, even though our coach was a guy by the name of John Kennedy, was a school principal by profession and he's working as a school principal and as a coach 50 odd years ago. But. The basic principle that stayed with me kind of ever since was that convincing Abbas that we have to be subservient to the team doesn't matter how egotistical you are and how driven you are. And now I'm more driven and egotistical, I can tell you. But John Kennedy convinces. Now the way is it's is a group a group think and launch a group C as much as we might want to the individual success but he told us that was right. He also said some basic principles that were really fully ones like injuries about the neck don't matter in the modern concussion. You don't know where that one sits. He also used your say in terms of the physical contact nature of the sport. Don't show him you're hurt. I got knocked out twice, but I've never had my back on the stretcher. I got up, even I was unconscious because John Kennedy convinced me he's a bloody good salesman. Better, I tell you.

Alec: [00:11:04] Fair enough. Well, I'm glad I'm not a professional footy player. 

Leigh: [00:11:07] Yeah, that's changed a little bit in the modern era, but it's still pretty physical out in the field.

Alec: [00:11:12] So the one thing that you had to do as a coach and especially a multiple premiership winning coach is take a group of young people and, you know, mould them into a team and develop them as individuals. You're speaking to a roomful of relatively young people here, Glenn, and my hairline beg to differ, but what some of the things that you really tried to instil in the young people when you were coaching and that we should all take. You know, we're not in high performance sports teams, but we're all trying to be high performance investors. 

Leigh: [00:11:43] Well, my last coaching stint was at the Brisbane Lions from 1999 to 2000, and that's when football became a little bit more like normal global world life in a way where you become a full time footballer. So you're not just down like the suburban players going to training and then playing on the weekends. It was now a job. So that's the last couple of generations. So that was really interesting. It's different when the players are pretty much available all the time to you. I mean, it might not be as much of a 9 to 5 and and therefore it's not only their sort of passion and their hobby, it's also their livelihood. And that adds a lot more pressure, really, from what it was in the days when it was more just, you know, a part time footy side. So actually therefore being aware of that and being aware of the the emotional cycle, I always thought that there physical, physical contact, sports accommodation for them, the physical, what your body can do, your mental, your knowledge, but your emotional state is what fluctuates all the time and trying to get to know yourself. We had a sports psychologist who I wish I knew of when I played in a couple of my mates, but knowing yourself and those around you is a really good basis for working well as a group. And everyone's different. And it doesn't mean that, you know, different personalities are better or worse, but they are different. Like, for instance, there's a personality that this sports psychologist referred to is the enforcer personality. So in the pre-game, I'll be like, the one of you like down the wall. Yeah, you in the dressing room, you put a towel over my head. In a way, it's like I'm about to go to war. But there's a mozzie, another personality. There's only four that we're all a bit old, But this mozzie, they like to muck around and play jokes, and the enforcers in the mozzies think the mozzies aren't really fair dinkum. They're not really trying because they're having fun. But we learnt that that works. That works for them. So leave the mozzies alone, let them hang around together. You enforce is you can go in the corner and do your thing and we leave each other alone. So that's just an example of knowing yourself and your tendencies and also those around you. But what I did like about this particular psychologist Phil Jones used to say, But bottom line, we don't really care what you think. We only care what you can do. See, people think, think thinking matters. Actions are the only thing that matters. If that's the only thing that ever counts, it'll take anything that can ever be recorded. So. So that ability to control your sort of emotional state, you know, we're not getting worked up, have the flags stop being and being able to sort of calm yourself down. That was something that the law was the basis of the Lions team, which had a really successful period and a lot of it and we did it with wives, partners, staff. It's not only the players, it's everybody that has a little bit better knowledge of the game, what your tendencies are yourself and what other people are and working within that with each other.

Bryce: [00:14:43] You know, some great sort of crossover there with understanding who you are as an investor and managing your own money and, and where you sit and, you know, controlling emotion, those sorts of things when when markets are tanking and who you are and how you're act understanding that is super important for those that are sitting here and looking to find a bit of an edge in their investing or in in managing their their own money really into. Said to know how you tried to find an edge. You won three premierships in a row with the Brisbane Lions. What did you put in place that wasn't the Essendon approach of The Early 2010s, but what did you put in place or what were some of the things you tried to find? A competitive edge? 

Leigh: [00:15:26] I was a principal as much as anything, but you got to try and find the competitive edge. That's the point. You are searching for the competitive edge. It's a non-profit sport in a sense. Everyone gets paid like a top level AFL player now might get million dollars, a top level coach might get $1,000,000, but it is actually no, no one profits from the clubs. So every all the money that the club can generate, the supporters and TV rights and all that goes back into preparing the player. So it's back anywhere in terms of finding the competitive nature. I think the most radical thing that we did. We played a game in Cairns pre-season game in February. Everyone sweats a lot, dehydrate you, can't possibly drink and has not been to actually for the man that you're sweating it in that really humid environment a dog's air conditioning starts with let's give him an I.V. drip those who've really lost the four or five K, so they put the silent solution in direct to their buying and it seem to work quite well. So for next few years, I'd be talking to the players at half time and look at bloody doctor surgery. There'd be an I.V. drip hanging from the wall into the player's arms. I do it at halftime and post-game. After a few years it was legal. It was only sideline solution. But I mean, I got I got to say, I can understand when the AFL sort of found out about it, they thought this is not a good look for the local under 15 team. I can understand that. So they banned it and they banned it two weeks before we were to play the game rainfall in 2001. So I went there, conditioning stopped it. They got a refrigerated van underneath at the surgery outside a room. So at half time you can't put the I.V. dripping down, put the players in the really cold atmosphere for ten or 15 minutes to help them not sweat quite so much. Just an example. Every little bit helps. Now that that did help, we found a Qantas pilot who was prepared. We had a theory of air conditioning. People had a theory that if you fly at a lower altitude, the air pressure's different. It might have different effects on your physiological state, particularly post-game when you're coming back, flying back from a game. So we found this guy, Don Lehman was his name, Qantas flight. He would fly the plane. It was safe, obviously at about 15,000 feet. Just felt a lot better, landed his owner. And we did that for two or three years, too. And it's like the placebo thing. I don't know whether to help or not, but I helped their players because I always said, as a club, if you can believe that our organisation is the top of its field, it's going to be a lot of fields. But in the AFL side there's 18 clubs. If our club and our system and our people and our conditioning, it is cutting edge and they believe it, which our players did. Even if it's a placebo effect, it's valuable like that.

Alec: [00:18:14] Yeah, I just can't wait for a number of AFL coaches to start implementing placebos next year. 

Bryce: [00:18:21] No fly zones. 

Alec: [00:18:22] Yeah, I want to go back to the the idea of, you know, people think it's that people don't care about what you think it's the actions that you're Yeah and you know that holds very true in investing and especially in a year like this everyone's had plenty of thoughts as their portfolio falls but it's the actions that you take that matter. Not selling, sticking in for the long term, taking the opportunity to take advantage of the current prices. But a key part of that is managing emotion because as an investor it's very easy to get swept up in the emotion and panic or and sell or, you know, on the other side get swept up when things are good and get FOMO and, you know, overextend yourself or whatever. So how have you seen the players that you've coached when you're a player? How what's some of the best techniques you've seen to manage those emotions and really stay in control? 

Leigh: [00:19:16] What will is something that probably every team does, and it's gone more and more as time has gone in a more complex manner. And it's that it's that simple principle in concept. I mean, we know what our objective is. I mean, when you go and play a game of football, there's a scoreboard there. So whoever picks emotional wins, that's our objective. So you got to know what your objective was, didn't you? But it's clear in the footy world and you and you plan and prepare to do your best you can in the game. You play the game, you have an emotional response. If you win a close game, it might be just euphoria. If you lose a close game, it's bloody depressing. You feel like your world is about to end, but either way, about a day later you come out of that emotional state because you start planning ahead, and the first start of planning ahead is to look back and review. Okay. And I used to always make sure it was a diet too, after. The guy inside the emotional state had flattened out. Now we can rationally look back at what happened, what worked for us, what didn't work for us. And then guess what? We start that process again. The planning preparation for the next weekend. So it's a simple principle when you think of it. But when a group situation I mean, if a group can't spend half an hour together, talk about what's happened the previous week, we call to kidnap cells, aren't we? But how many groups doubt. I'd say a lot. 

Bryce: [00:20:37] Well they, we could sit here all night and chat footy and all, all of the things but we should open it up to the audience. We've got about 8 minutes or so before Li needs to jet off. So I mean now's the chance to speak to an AFL legend in the House. So I don't know how we are going to facilitate this but well. They're great with me.

Alec: [00:20:59] Hand up and I say I'll stick your hand up if you've got a question. While we're looking for a question, I've got one more thing to ask you. We've had a few AFL players or ex AFL players on the show. Some of them are great investors in your time and we hear that there's a lot of stock chat and these days crypton NFT chat in locker rooms. Who's the best investor you've come across in a locker room in your time? 

Leigh: [00:21:23] Well, I should be thinking who's the well who's become the wealthiest, wealthy, wealthiest post by probably Craig Kelly, who are who actually I coached at Collingwood and he was a South Australian. We're talking about three years to convince him to come to Melbourne. But then he started up one of the player management groups in the mid nineties and that became Tayla, which is a very big organisation. He sold a couple of times for 20 million and brought it back for about five. So he's sort of done that about twice. He's got to be the man, I reckon he's actually it's work well for great. They say he's about to become CEO of Collingwood. I don't know if he could afford to do that. He's that wealthy.

Alec: [00:22:04] I won't ask you who the worst is. Oh.

Leigh: [00:22:08] But I'm not a good investor. I can't think for now. Not I live in the moment. Unfortunate. Haven't got, got no vision. I'd like to have some more. So vision I've got for use people like you, I'll be on your paddock podcast next week to see what you sign. BET stuff. 

Alec: [00:22:22] Sounds good. We'll make sure you're subscribing to Equity Mates so you can really come on the podcast, but only to have someone in the audience. 

Audience: [00:22:33] Hi. First comment. You were my favourite player as a kid. 

Leigh: [00:22:38] No, thank you. You must be very old. But anyway, thank you. 

Audience: [00:22:43] I had a number three in the back and a fantastic thing. Quick question. There are two parts. So when you get your money, how do you decide how to allocate it and to use? Do you yourself have a financial coach?

Leigh: [00:22:56] Well, I've got a financial adviser. You know, I employ a financial adviser to look up the part of my super super fund. I'm old enough to have the ability. I had some I made some good decisions, really, for people of our age. Whatever wealth you've got, you want to build your super fund, don't you? Because it's had its tax advantages over the years. You still got to decide what to do with the money in the super fund. But I've got a financial adviser who looks after a part of that. I'm a bit of a control freak, so it looks after about a third of the pot and I look after the other two thirds of the pot. Yeah, but I'm a very conservative investor. Very conservative.

Bryce: [00:23:34] Think there's one here in the middle of. 

Audience: [00:23:42] Our leaders came to understand how you get your head out of a dark cloud and how you can sort of control your emotion. Some say through your coaching period at Brisbane that we know how you somewhat control your temper and we've sort of seen you sort of lose your control at some point at the same time. Don't get me wrong, was very entertaining for a bit, but at the same time when you do speak, we do see the players, we do say to staff, really listen to you and, and sometimes the way that you sort of control your tone and your voice and that moment can't really just understand it from your perspective. 

Leigh: [00:24:22] Now, what you say is very important. I mean, I'm I try very hard when I coach not to be a stress carrier because just the competition to stress the fact, the opposition to try and just as hard to win as you are and they stress, how am I going to perform, how we're going to perform. So you don't want the coach, You want the coach trying to assist them. So, for instance, I had a reasonable build. I have a cold exterior and my guts would be churning, but didn't necessarily look that way. But one of the things I did in about the hour before the game, because I could feel myself getting uptight, particularly as a coach. Sometimes I'd even drive, reach and stuff. I mean, I just about to lose control once I ran out onto the field so I wouldn't go near the place for about the last hour before the game because I didn't want my stress to rub off on them. But the other part of that, that stress is the thing I meant before I lived that cycle for 37 years of actually you perform and you have an emotional response and it might be good or it might feel like if I'd lost the family, they just don't talk to me for a day. But a day later you come out of the fog because you start planning ahead and that's Connor. That's how you. So all of a sudden you've had a really bad experience, but you've got a chance again to do something sort of good in the next phase. That's the great thing about the week to week cycle of sport when you think of it. But yeah, no, but I trying hard to not let your emotions be reflected in your actions or your manners or your appearance. I wasn't too bad at that, which is a pretty important, pretty important quality, I think, particularly in modern footy, when the coach has got a camera on him almost as much as the players have when the game is on. I'm talking about the two and a half hours of the game. 

Alec: [00:26:06] I think we got another question on the front.

Facilitator: [00:26:08] Might just jump in and we'll come to your next question from the live stream, which is from Morgan, who says, How have you managed someone that became fixated on a certain powerful strategy and refused to be open to other options?

Leigh: [00:26:23] Well, you do your best to meld that in. So it depends. Let's face it, it is a very, very, very good player and it helps us win games of footy. He did put up with a lot because what are we therefore we're there to win games of footy. So if he's a good player, he's got to be doing a lot of things wrong not to be valuable. But if you can't, if, if all even if these are really the high performing individual in the team sport is that you often get asked about that and you try to just make sure that it's melded in so that it's a net positive, that the net positive, they were positive to the team performance. If it comes to the stage, they're not. Then they have to leave the team. That's the bottom. Yeah, that's the end result. But that means maybe you've met, you've failed as a manager. But sometimes we all have failures in that regard because sometimes over time, individuals just won't be. They'll become net negatives to the group. But that's one of the things that managers and coaches have to have to decide. 

Facilitator: [00:27:26] Okay, I think we have one more down the front here. Come around. 

Audience: [00:27:35] Just want to say that I've always been a big fan. And you crushed my childhood dream of Richmond getting into a grand final. 2001 Back in. But thankfully, we've had good times. Yes, yes, few years. You talk of being a sales person and trying to emulate that in the NFL. How did you get your team to three grand finals and sell them that each year? 

Leigh: [00:28:01] Well, I think there was a couple of things that our team it's interesting when your team looks back and they talk about it now almost a couple of decades later. One, they lived in the moment, but you've got to know when to focus and when to relax, you know, when to try again, when, when to relax. So you've got to be able to have that ability to concentrate on the now mostly laughs about what's going to happen the next hour. Like once we're done that the best we can, then we'll get into the hour that's living in the moment, which is really important. And they embraced the concept, the role playing contract that investing in the team by embracing our role. Now that's where the selling part was it. I had to convince them that the wrong way asking you to play you everyone in football 95% they all do the same thing. But there's a part of the game that we want you to do this. The I, Alister Lynch was a big forward. We want, if we're in trouble, kick the ball his head temp 50 metres out from our goal Big strong man you know he'll market to come to get Craig McRae who now coach is calling it his job. The ball comes off his hands. You ought to be there to give ground level support, like just some basic things like that. But our players started to we lost. We lost the game by 15 goals in early 2001. The following week we lost by five points. The following week we played Essendon, who hadn't lost for about two years. We beat them, won 20 straight. After winning losing by 15 goals two weeks before. So one, you never know what's going to happen. But our players look back on what we identified from that Carlton game was Cowan's performance was based on a two or three or four plays that you wouldn't even now know of unless you're Collingwood supporters. Anthony Friend, trainer Darren HUME. Glenn Freeborn who. Who were the role players? The chases attack was the precious pressure that allowed the good players to be good players and our players embraced that. Brad Scott, Marcus Ashcroft, Craig McRae play different players and that was what our team believes was the principle, the couple of principles on which they base their performance. And from that, partly from that talent, of course, a very talented group. But that was the that was going to the psychological belief systems, as simple as it sounds. That was the basis of the performances of those. The team that played in the four consecutive grand finals in the early 2000. Yeah. 

Bryce: [00:30:25] I think we've got time. Maybe for one more down the back. Yeah. 

Audience: [00:30:30] Hi Leigh, I just wanted to talk to you about what you did with young people and dealing with the amounts of money professional sports people actually got. So how did you deal with that 18 year old kid drafted back in 2000 that were getting a quarter million dollars? What was the club doing? What was the way that you were dealing with the financial windfall that your players had? But also then the other side of that question is once they left the AFL and that windfall fell away very quickly, how were you dealing with that emotion, with that sort of physical change that they were experiencing for the money they were against?

Leigh: [00:31:05] Yeah, Yeah, it is record that the evolution of that when you think of it when I mean the players that have been the full time as it as the last 20 odd years that they've been the full time but every player has got a player manager. And the player manager gets 3% of his income to manage it. So so that manager, if he's doing his job, he should be the one who is largely providing or getting the financial advice for that particular player. The clubs themselves will have a player welfare manager that is there for anything that the player needs some help or advice with and and you might well come through a club with, you know, a financial adviser that you could recommend, for instance. But I think most clubs and most people clubs would be very loathe to have too much apart from recommendations not to be too closely involved in what the players did with their money. They might give them the advice, but it's a dicey area if they got to sort of almost embrace the advice. Now, post-playing clubs will try to still be there for by the Players Association. The life They'll Players Association has a past players, alumni. The players might, for instance, have bad knee injury issues that from their playing might need surgery. So the players association will play for the cost of the surgery. But I would have thought the clubs, most clubs would say that actually being too closely involved in the financial advice to an individual player, you know, is something his family is certainly manager should be the main source for stuff like that. 

Bryce: [00:32:47] Well, we have unfortunately run out of time, but we'd just like to say a massive thank you for sharing your time with us tonight. Some great lessons coming out of the conversation. And I'm sure on behalf of everyone, it's been an absolute pleasure. 

Leigh: [00:33:00] Thank you very much. 

Bryce: [00:33:01] Thank you very much.