39 – Why Crypto Doesn’t Have to be Taxing at EOFY | Koinly

Tracey: [00:00:19] Welcome to the Crypto Curious podcast designed to help you navigate the dynamic world of cryptocurrency. We are here for anyone who is interested in crypto at all. Maybe you've already dipped your toe in the water, or maybe you don't know anything about it. And this is the very beginning. But we recommend heading back to the early episodes to get your footing. Today is a little different. Today, Blake and I are joined by guest Danny Talwar from COIN Lee Australia to talk about the very exciting subject of tax. Today we're going to discuss the crypto landscape and how it's progressed over the last few years with Tax. But Danny, thanks for joining us today. Do you want to maybe enjoy yourself a little bit and explain your background and how you got into this this tech side of things? [00:01:04][44.8]

Danny: [00:01:05] Thanks very much, Tracey. It's great to be on. So I've got a background in international tax. I've worked in the UK with accountancy organisations and also in Sydney most recently, and a lot of the work I was doing was around multinational space and international taxation and it was late 2020, early 2021 when I really came into the crypto space, both personally but also in a professional capacity. I was seeing more and more clients in the space and suddenly got really interested and actually needed to upskill in that area too to kind of help help clients that that essentially had crypto service offerings. So, so what I did was I essentially just read up a lot about crypto myself. I started investing more for my own education and learning and, and over time I kind of realised how passionate people in this area are and really wanting to be a part of it. And here I am actually today. Coinbase was set up in 2018 by Robin Singh. He's got a software development background, try to do his taxes one day and figured out it was an absolute nightmare. Doing it on a spreadsheet. So essentially invented Koine which which automates that process on a software. And here we are today in 2022 with just under 90 employees globally and a huge, huge presence across the world. Wow. [00:02:35][90.7]

Blake: [00:02:35] That's that's really awesome to hear. And definitely solving a problem that many, many Australians and many people globally face every year. So it's great to see the solution for sure. [00:02:46][10.7]

Tracey: [00:02:47] Yeah, and I think we're doing this episode today because a lot of people have been writing in to our inbox asking for this episode because they have a lot of questions around taxes and we'll get to some of those questions later on. But for you in particular, you said that you came into that. I think you said, you know, 20, 20, 21, you saw the problems there and then you you sought out answers to those problems. So how has the landscape in tax changed or progressed over those last few years? And what have been the big changes? [00:03:16][29.2]

Danny: [00:03:17] Yeah, absolutely. So I think one of the big changes is just the introduction of crypto assets in general and the change that's meant for investors and institution as a whole is that as they get to grips with digital assets and, you know, tax laws are very, very old and weren't designed for digital assets and crypto and certainly that wasn't in mind from tax authorities when when they were created and also when it was put into legislation. But one of the big changes we're seeing is not just the law and how it applies from a tax perspective, but the way in which people use crypto assets is evolving much, much quicker than regulations. You know, it's not even just tax, but regulations can actually adapt. And and I think that's really important to bear in mind because, you know, initially when Bitcoin was was started as the original peer to peer exchange or cash system, you know, the idea being to remove financial intermediaries was, was quite novel and you know, followed after the GFC. But now there's a lot of institutional adoption of crypto. We've got sovereign adoption now with countries like El Salvador and I think the way in which people are using crypto for borrowing lending is changing and that means that really tax authorities have to adapt and there's a global alignment needed across regulatory regulations as a whole rather than just country by country. Basis. [00:05:00][102.3]

Blake: [00:05:01] Yeah, it's definitely a fascinating space watching the regulators try to keep up with innovation. And of course, you know, they don't want to stifle innovation by overregulating, but they also don't want to under regulate. And this creates a tension, but also it can be a healthy tension at the same time by your being a little bit conservative and taking their time. So. Yeah. No, it's really interesting. And so maybe more broadly in Australia, could you just speak to like how crypto generally is treated in relation to tax? [00:05:32][31.5]

Danny: [00:05:34] Yeah, sure. So it's really important to cover this because one of the key misconceptions with crypto is that it is not taxable and a lot of people think they can hold crypto in digital wallets, forget about it and not have to think about it for tax time. And you know, with with everything being on chain or stored on a blockchain that's inherently transparent and traceable and crypto is certainly not the place to hide. And so the ATO have actually come out and said that crypto asset gains are one of their four top priority areas ahead of tax time this year. This one of the second ones is actually record keeping which that tie into crypto because if you've made gains or losses, you have to show that you've made them and provide evidence and records if you're asked. So it's really something the ATO are cracking down on at the moment. And I think from what we've seen COIN is a lot of investors are in that kind of 18 to 34 age group. A lot of a lot of younger people are investing in crypto very, very casually. It's so easy to buy and sell crypto now that a lot of people just aren't aware that they might be creating capital disposables, for example, by selling crypto. And you know, you can just do a touch of a button or on your iPhone when you're sat on your sofa and transfer between different assets and create all these taxable events. So I think first and foremost, just just recognising that crypto is taxable and when you make those transactions transfer sales or if you even gifting crypto, it's likely that you are creating taxable events. And so yeah, I think I think that's something that's important to to bear in mind as well. [00:07:20][106.8]

Tracey: [00:07:21] Danny, can you maybe tell us what some of those taxable events actually are then? [00:07:25][3.6]

Danny: [00:07:26] Yeah. So firstly, it's important to understand whether you are trading crypto as an ordinary investor, which most people will be or as a company or a trader and you're carrying on a business. Most people will fall into that investor bucket, which means they'll be taxed on capital gains or their crypto will be viewed as a capital asset. And so what that means is any time you sell your crypto and it's treated on a coin by coin basis or a token by token basis, if you like, say every time you sell Bitcoin, for example, you're going to create a taxable event if you transfer it. So you transfer Bitcoin to Etherium. And again, that's seen as disposing a taxable capital gains asset for another asset. And and so it's really important to understand whenever you're selling, spending, gifting, transferring, exchanging crypto, you are likely making those disposals as you go along. And capital gains tax is essentially your purchase price plus any associated fees, less your price on disposal. And that will leave you with a gain or loss. [00:08:39][73.6]

Blake: [00:08:40] Yeah. Or like a personal profit or loss. And then that that's what's taxable. That's what you have to report. [00:08:46][5.6]

Danny: [00:08:47] Yeah, absolutely. And and one of the things we're seeing is people spending crypto with debit debit cards. So there's, for example, crypto.com cards out there that a lot of people have and spending on those cards each time, you know, if you're going to buy a groceries or get a cup of coffee, it's likely that each time you're tapping away, spending your you are actually creating a taxable event. And so you so so you will be that will be a capital disposal. [00:09:14][26.9]

Blake: [00:09:15] So this leads into a bit of a side question then about how good are these platforms, these exchanges and card issuers and and and other apps at providing the end user with reporting that makes it easy for them to, you know, report their their capital gains. [00:09:32][17.1]

Danny: [00:09:32] Yeah, I think that's that's a really good point because people holding crypto accounts or bank account card accounts or in different places will have slightly fragmented holdings of where they're actually, you know, where they're actually storing their crypto. Maybe they've got a little bit on a card, maybe they've got some in a Binance account, for example, that they want to use to buy more crypto. And they might have. Wallets, like hard wallets, where they're trying to store everything in one place. That's that's an in and off offline, essentially for safety. So what that means is people don't actually have a way to kind of a track the value of everything in one place and B, understand what their tax obligations are. And we are seeing exchanges try and lead the way on that. They are partnering with software that do provide tax reporting. For example, some exchanges have their own built in software and others use software like Koine to actually help plug in and and go through transactions for tax time. [00:10:38][65.7]

Tracey: [00:10:39] I think what we might do now, Danny, is move into some of our user questions if we can, and let's, let's, let's see what we've got here. That might open up a few things for us. We've got Tash who asks about tax implications in Australia and the best way to set up your crypto, whether that's personally or through a company. And should we class ourselves as a trader? What do we do here? [00:11:02][22.7]

Danny: [00:11:02] Yeah. So it's likely that as a starting point, you know, if crypto is not your main source of income and you're using it for generally investment purposes, you're hoping to make a profit, it's likely that you are going to be classed as an ordinary investor and you will have to pay capital gains tax. Now, there are ways that over time your operations may grow to the point where you're almost all running a business. If you're if you're trading high volumes, if you've got a bit of a business plan in place, for example, or a strategy to make profit, perhaps an arbitrage strategy that you've designed through high frequency trading. And that's probably on the more extreme end. But the point there is that it's likely that you're going to be seen as an investor subject to capital gains tax. And it's not that you can choose to be classed as a business unless you genuinely are operating a business. In which case, again, it would be important to seek advice from a qualified accountant, particularly an accountant that understands crypto and knows the space well, and they can apply the ATO guidance to that individual saying. [00:12:14][72.1]

Blake: [00:12:15] Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense to me. And I think that answers the question for Tash. So Richard has asked a question. Hi folks, can you explain tax loss harvesting? [00:12:27][12.0]

Danny: [00:12:28] Yeah, this is a good one and probably quite relevant actually for people right now. And you know, the market during the tax year has gone from July to November. You know, the price of Bitcoin has increased over 100%. And then from November till the end of June 22, we've seen a huge drop. And anyone trading and not so good say anyone trading during that period is likely to be in the red with their portfolio and wondering, what can I do? So tax loss harvesting is actually the silver lining to that. So if you are making losses as the market's going down or you're selling at a loss, perhaps you're even just exchanging assets from Bitcoin to Etherium and you're Bitcoin has gone down in comparison to the price he bought it. You can record that as a as a capital loss. And what that means is you can offset the loss against any gains you may have made during that year or any future years. So let's say you just made losses during the tax year. If you capture that and you record it and best way to do that is probably to use software to understand where you are making those capital losses and you're selling assets at a loss. But the idea there is you can offset those losses against future gains. And if you haven't made any gains this year, that's fine. You can still carry them forward as long as you recognise on your tax return. [00:13:57][88.5]

Tracey: [00:13:57] So Danny, sorry, I'm genuinely interested here. Can we do that kind of thing thing through cleanly then? Is that the way that we can do that? [00:14:03][6.3]

Danny: [00:14:04] It's actually can be used to just track your losses. So the key thing with tax loss harvesting there is you actually have to realise the loss. So if you haven't sold your asset and it's just sitting there in the account and the unrealised loss won't count towards tax loss harvesting, you actually have to make the sale. And so software like COIN can help because it would track, you know, where you've made perhaps you made a transfer and that will be recorded as a capital disposal, made a loss from it. Then you can use it to offset. And I think the important thing to note there is you actually have to record that loss in your return. So people might be thinking, I don't have to pay taxes here, I haven't made a profit. It's important to consider, well, have you actually made any losses? And can you can you record that on your return or give you a future benefit? Is it's also worth discussing the. With your accountant. They won't replace the need for an accountant if you like. So it's really important to actually bear that in mind and. [00:15:07][62.8]

Tracey: [00:15:07] In putting all that data together to place in front of that accountant. [00:15:11][3.6]

Danny: [00:15:11] Yeah, exactly. And there is one thing to watch out for with with loss harvesting, which is essentially a rule called the wash sale. And if you're selling an asset and requiring it very, very quickly just to create this capital loss, the ATO will likely deny that. And so it's important to bear in mind these have to be genuine losses. You have to make the decision to sell the asset, perhaps you're transferring it into another asset and or you're just cutting your losses, but it's just something to watch out. [00:15:44][32.5]

Tracey: [00:15:44] Okay, alright, we'll bear that in mind. So our next question is one that is is very of the now, but Leigh asks can I claim a loss from the Luna? [00:15:54][10.7]

Danny: [00:15:56] Yeah, this is also a good one. So obviously the lunar crash really has a lot of investors reeling from that project, which is massively high. It's I don't know if there's any Tracy Blake, any lunar holders amongst you, but and. [00:16:11][15.4]

Tracey: [00:16:13] I know I think I think we were very lucky. I think I will I will admit to have of holding some at some point. But I certainly wasn't at the time. So really lucky. [00:16:22][9.4]

Danny: [00:16:23] There. Yeah, well, there you go. So there are a lot of people in this position where they've held longer and the value is just gone practically to zero. And in terms of what the ATO say on this is if you've made a capsule loss or you've you've lost or your stole or your crypto has been stolen, essentially it is possible that you can claim that as a capital loss. But the key thing is you really need evidence to show that you've made that capital loss. And so in the first case, your crypto actually has to get lost. And so if the value has gone down, the ATO will likely say, tuff, that's just a bad investment. It's not a capital loss, but if you sold, you're doing that, you will still be able to claim that capital loss at the point at which you've sold it. And in terms of in terms of providing evidence for that capital loss or stolen asset, you have to show, you know, you hold the wallet access to the wallet address or, you know, do you control the accounts that are linked to the funds and and try and demonstrate with evidence why you've made that capital loss and, you know, perhaps whether it's genuine. And so that's something that's really important to consider as well. Definitely work with your accountant on that, but it's something that that can be done. [00:17:42][79.3]

Blake: [00:17:42] So so what if there's no liquidity in the market to be able to trigger that, you know, capital loss? [00:17:49][6.6]

Danny: [00:17:50] Yeah, this is this is a good one. Is it does get very, very complicated. So if there is no liquidity in the market, you would have to show that in some form of evidence if you're claiming that capital loss. And so, you know, the ATO are clear it has to be lost or stolen and you have to be able to prove it. So, you know, being able to demonstrate records is probably very, very important in in in that and I think work with your accountant to really understand whether that's something that's genuine, that can be claimed as capsule loss and whether you have enough evidence that will really back up your claim. [00:18:24][33.9]

Blake: [00:18:24] All right. That makes sense. Well, just moving on to the next question. We had Daniel ask him, can your dabbling in crypto be considered a hobby if you're just starting off with very solemn small amounts? And if so, what is the threshold for this? And I think what Daniel's getting at is, you know, if you're trading with 50 or 100 or $200 or under a thousand, is the ATO do you need to report your your profit and loss here to the ATO at the end of financial year? [00:18:55][30.4]

Danny: [00:18:55] Yes. So it's important to remember here at the ATO starting point is that crypto assets are a CGT asset and so generally people use these assets to invest in. There is no set threshold with regard to kind of changing from a hobby to an investor. But what's important to consider is how personal use asset rules apply. And so personal use assets are essentially capital assets that are under 10,000 AUD that are used for personal use only. And the ATO's view on this is only in very, very rare circumstances can crypto be used under his personal use asset rule. And the benefit being is that capital gains don't apply if it's under $10,000. Now there's a lot of misconceptions out there that if you spend crypto and it's under $10,000 and you've spent it on something that's for personal use, you may. Maybe you've bought a meal from it or for your groceries. A lot of people think that's not taxable. But the ATO have come out and said here in this case, personal use asset is very, very unlikely to apply. They have actually given an example on their website which basically says, you know, imagine if you're going to a concert and the concert says you can have a 20% discount if you pay through crypto rather than Australian dollars. And so from there you go and buy a crypto and 10 minutes later you go and say, okay, well I'll buy buy my concert ticket and get 20% off. In that scenario, you know, you've only held the asset for about 10 minutes. You've definitely used it for something of personal use. And there's a reason why you've used the crypto, because it will be cheaper relatively than paying cash. So so it goes back to, you know, the stone point of view is that as a CGT asset, it's it can be really difficult to fall under those personal use asset rules, but it's not impossible. It can happen. [00:21:03][127.7]

Blake: [00:21:04] All right. Good to know. Will definitely check with your accountant on that one there. [00:21:07][3.4]

Tracey: [00:21:08] Now, we've got a question from John, who's asking about something that I'm interested into is how are striking or earning rewards taxed? And he's talking more about the cost basis calculated when you're selling. [00:21:20][12.0]

Danny: [00:21:21] So staking is a good one because it's treated as income for tax purposes rather than a capital gain. And so when you earn that staking reward, for example, you will have to declare that income tax rather than capital gains. It means that you, you know, you won't be eligible for the 50% capital gains tax discount, for example, and you have to essentially declare that straight as income tax. It's important to be able to track that staked asset and say, you know, when you have to pay tax on it, from an income tax perspective, the cost base is essentially the market value at the time that staked asset is received. But what's really important to note is that when you go on and sell it, that will still be a capital disposal. So there's two potential taxes that will apply. And what's interesting is, given the value of crypto has fallen so significantly recently, you can end up in a situation where you're paying income tax from your staked assets, but then you're making a loss when you go and sell the asset. And so you're still having to pay tax even though you are in a position where you've not made made anything from your from your asset self. [00:22:35][74.2]

Tracey: [00:22:36] My God, the tracking of that just sounds like a nightmare. There's just so many different there's just so many different moving parts to that. It just. It's making my brain hurt, to be honest. [00:22:45][9.5]

Blake: [00:22:46] Yeah, well, I suppose leading on from that then Tracey, like how does the ATO track all this and know what's going on and, you know, figure out who's doing the right thing or who's doing the wrong thing? [00:22:58][12.2]

Danny: [00:22:59] Yeah. So the ATO have data matching programmes in place with exchanges. So with the Australian exchanges they are able to match the data base, for example, in your wallet on these exchanges with what you report in your tax return. The other thing to remember is when you sign up to most exchanges in Australia, you do have to provide ID and verification that the account belongs to you. It's often kind of your name, address or your kind of personal details are there for, you know, compliance check purposes. And so really there is a record when you first convert your Australian dollars to crypto and so the ATO are able to track that. And then of course it's important to remember that everything on crypto is stored on the open blockchain which which is transparent can be traced. And even if you are using protocols that you might think, okay, well you know, this is new, the ATO might not have access to it now. Well, you know, into two or three years time that might not be the case. So definitely worth being upfront and declaring all of your crypto transactions that are relevant for the year. [00:24:13][74.1]

Tracey: [00:24:13] Last year people talked about the fact that the ATO had access to, say, the Australian exchanges information and now they're saying now that they've got, I've got access to, you know, all the major exchanges information. You know, is there a grey line there or which exchanges information do they have access to. [00:24:33][19.4]

Danny: [00:24:34] Yeah, is is I think there is perhaps you know, I think the ATO might not want to give away all of their cards and show their full hand on that because, you know, ultimately they will have data analytics tools and systems in place to be able to match up what's in your return and the access to data they have. I think of course, important to. Member that they can come and ask individuals, you know, at any time for and full requests of all your records, evidence of all your claims and your disclosures in your tax return. And I think over time, you know, their network of information will expand. And, you know, we see it with shares. For example, you often all the information is already there in your tax return through pre-filled. And going forward with crypto, you know, it could be the same in the future. [00:25:27][53.5]

Tracey: [00:25:28] And what we've what we've been hearing a lot through this interview, Danny, is, you know, ask your accountant, you know, so your accountant seems to be a very important person in this scenario, you know, with the crypto tax and making sure you've got an accountant that is up to speed with current regulations on what they need to find out. So when you've got that person, what generally do you need to prepare for your accountant? [00:25:51][23.0]

Danny: [00:25:52] Yes. So I think one of the things that's really important is to just be really, really upfront and transparent with all of the transactions you may have. And so try and remember, you know, where have you traded crypto? What platforms have you used, what wallets have you held? And it's not just in the tax year that you might be filing for, but from the beginning of when you got involved in crypto because the accountant will need a purchase history to then going calculate what your actual gain is or what your losses. And so being able to produce all of that information or at least kind of running through a checklist of. Right, have I, you know, have I actually given my accounts and everything? Are there any wallets that I just sat idle that, you know, perhaps you may not have thought about in a while? And so giving them access to that information is really important. Again, using software will really help. And the ATO do suggest, you know, you can use software to help comply given the amount of different moving parts and things to consider when it does come to how your crypto is treated for tax purposes. [00:27:01][69.3]

Blake: [00:27:02] Yeah, and it's probably just a question I have is that, you know, is there a penalty for not reporting your crypto trading correctly, for example? [00:27:11][9.0]

Danny: [00:27:12] Yeah. So the penalties that are standard across different asset classes as a whole do apply. So there's no crypto specific penalty. But essentially, if you do fail to declare your capital gains, it can attract a penalty of up to 75% of the outstanding tax amount or tax liability. And the ATO can also add the tax itself that's due at interest on any shortfall and there's varying severity of penalties that the ATO can apply depending on, you know, whether you've just missed something and it's an honest mistake all the way to, you know, you've, you've actually known about it but not not disclosed this and essentially tax evasion. So that and that's very, very serious. So penalties can apply. And I think one thing to note is generally the ATO are very, very reasonable if you have made your best efforts to comply with the rules. And they do understand that it is very, very complicated as a new space. The guidance out there as well is is limited to probably the more basic aspects of of crypto rather than, you know, more complex interactions like decentralised finance or earning through playing games. You know, game fi is a really big one that's coming through now as well. So yes. So definitely don't disclose everything that you have and don't hide. [00:28:39][87.2]

Blake: [00:28:40] Mm hmm. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. [00:28:41][1.3]

Tracey: [00:28:43] You just touched any on Defi and gaming or nfts. So is there anything that people need to know about about those scenarios when it comes to tax? [00:28:53][10.2]

Danny: [00:28:54] Yeah, definitely. So firstly with Nfts, the view that same as other cryptocurrencies or crypto assets. So it's interesting that the ATO did actually update that guidance where previously they just referred to Bitcoin as the main example, but they've now expanded that and used the term crypto assets, which includes nfts game tokens and the like. And so important thing to note there is if you are trading and it's, it's, it's viewed in the same way. Yeah. If you're an investor, a capital gains tax would apply. Same with playing games. You know, the game five one is interesting and probably gets a little bit more complicated and there isn't specific guidance out there. So I'd urge anyone that is transacting a lot through playing games and earning an NFT token through those or any income from playing those games to actually seek advice from an accountant. And often playing these games can trigger a huge number. Of taxable events. And so, you know, keeping that record becomes a real challenge. Decentralised finance as well as a big one because, you know, of course, you may be borrowing or lending and interest received from borrowing or lending protocols will be subject to income tax. So again, if you're into complex defi transactions, definitely see an accountant. [00:30:21][86.7]

Tracey: [00:30:21] I might just finish it off with a little bit of an example of my tax scenario at the moment and how tax season sometimes it's not easy, especially when you've been in crypto for quite a while. This is my fifth year in crypto, so for me there's a little bit of work to do and I'm doing my tax with a group called Crypto. Okay, so they're my tax accountants and they are actually the ones who put me on to coin who I can safely say I'm having a wonderful experience with Danny, so I'm vouching 100% for COIN. Lee. [00:30:51][29.3]

Danny: [00:30:51] That's great to hear. [00:30:52][0.6]

Tracey: [00:30:53] Yes. Yes, fantastic. So crypto, Kate, are my tax accountants and coin look it's not it's not easy pulling together. Your your tax is a lot to do, you know, especially if you're using a lot of different exchanges. And at the moment I'm not I've pulled them down. I'm point pull it down to just one exchange. One exchange. But over the years, I have used a lot of different exchanges. There's a lot of different APIs you've got to hook into. There's a lot of different reporting. Luckily, I'm not doing a lot of defi, but again, it takes time. So if you're if you're at that point where you're going back and doing a few different years of tax, for example, you need to you need to maybe put some time aside where you sit down and think, okay, I'm going to do this now and realise that it will take you a bit of time. It's not something that you can just get done really simply and really easily, which is why sometimes you do need help with a taxation accountant that understands what they're doing and you do need to use some software like COIN. Lee That makes a little bit easy when you are dealing with so many different transactions, even if you're not a big trader, even if you, you know, you don't realise how many entries and trades happen even if you're doing a few different. Yeah, I didn't think I was doing as many traders. I wasn't. All of a sudden there's pages and pages. But another example for for me is the NFT space. I actually fell victim to a scam a few months ago and lost a couple of my nfts it was quite a few Etherium that I did lose and I am able to claim those back and my accountants have let me know. And Danny, you might be able to understand this, but you can actually prove on the blockchain the fact that they are gone, because you can see clearly that there's no money has been exchanged for these. So I can actually prove those as loss. So if anyone else is out there has gone through the same scenario. That's something to bear in mind. And again, seek advice from your accountant. So again, for some people, tax time when it comes to crypto might be nice and simple, and for others there might be a bit of legwork that goes into it. And if there is a bit of legwork, then find yourself an accountant that understands what goes into that that you can speak to and get yourself an app like COIN. Lee That will make things a little bit easier for you as well. [00:33:12][139.7]

Danny: [00:33:13] Yes. So as a few tips here to consider, one is it's important to remember that if you actually hold a CGT asset for more than 12 months, you may be eligible for a 50% discount on your capital gains tax. And obviously you have to track and be able to prove that you have held that asset for more than 12 months. And when I say asset, I mean individual tokens or nfts for example. Another, another tip I gave is wallet hygiene. And this is probably more, more broad, you know, not not just from a tax specific point of view, but I think having separate wallets for separate purposes and transactions is really helpful to then kind of separate what type of activities you're doing. So for example, you may have a wallet that you use just to go and buy an NFT, you may have a separate wallet where you store them. But, you know, being able to kind of classify away a wallet will help. If you ever get asked for records down the line, you know, help show a clearer fact pattern. And, you know, that kind of goes on to my third tip, which is just keep proper records. You know, it's so easy to get lost with the amount of transactions people make in crypto. And, you know, keeping records is one of the second priority areas for the ATO this year. So really important to keep records, understand, you know, how you can support the claims when you, you know, put in your tax return that you're eligible for a 50% discount or so on, and you can gift crypto as well in the same way that other gifts apply. So, you know, you can get a tax deduction. If you gift to one of the registered organisations on on the gift recipient list and another one is lost harvesting which we mentioned. So you know, make sure you record your losses, you may be able to offset them against future gains. Finally, use an account and really use an account. And if you are transacting lot and you know you're in defi and nft space. Definitely worth seeking advice. [00:35:27][134.0]

Blake: [00:35:27] Or somebody will. I think that sums it up really well and gives everybody lots to work with and help is going to help everybody navigate, you know, their their tax obligations over the coming months. So, yes, thanks so much for joining us. And yeah, we look forward and maybe we can have you back again next year. [00:35:46][19.0]

Tracey: [00:35:47] Yes. He wants to see what's changed in tax next year. So thanks again, Danny. We appreciate you being here. [00:35:52][5.1]

Danny: [00:35:53] Thanks very much, Tracy. [00:35:53][0.9]

Tracey: [00:35:55] And that was Danny from COIN Lee. And for our listeners today, if you go to the show notes below, we're going to put in there a code for anyone wanting to take advantage of COIN. Lee, you're going to get yourself a special down there, so please do click on the link below and get yourself part of that special from COIN. Lee We love hearing from you, our listeners, as we did today, and we got you some feedback on tax just as you asked for. So please keep the feedback coming at podcast at Get Bamboo Dot IO and follow us on social media. That's Instagram and Facebook. The community's going really well on Facebook, so please jump in there and make sure you hit the follow button, whether you're listening to us like right now so you don't miss an episode and get notified every time we release a new one. We'd also love for you to share the podcast with your friends and family. We know there are a lot of people interested in crypto, so please send them our way and don't forget to write and view us in your podcast app. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you next week. [00:35:55][0.0]

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