Fidelity’s 6 favourite emerging market stocks with Anthony Doyle | ASX Week

Bryce Leske: [00:01:46] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast that follows our journey of investing, whether you're an absolute beginner or approaching Warren Buffett status. Our aim is to help break down your barriers from beginning to the dividend. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you going? [00:02:01][15.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:02:02] I'm very good, Bryce. Very excited for this episode, but more excited for this week. We've started off strong. We've got some of the best experts in Australia talking about some really interesting topics are all brought to you in conjunction with the ASX. The ASX Investor Day has happened across Australia. Unfortunately, covid shut down a couple of the cities. Yeah, a great opportunity to hear from some of the best in the business and learn a lot about investing if you missed it. We're bringing you some of the best sessions this week. [00:02:34][32.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:02:35] That's correct. Today, we are going to cover investing in emerging markets with Anthony Doyle from Fidelity. Sir Anthony, welcome to the show. [00:02:42][7.9]

Anthony Doyle: [00:02:43] Hello, gentlemen. Thanks for having me. [00:02:44][1.0]

Bryce Leske: [00:02:45] So Anthony is a cross-asset investment specialist at Fidelity International with 18 years of experience in global markets. And we're going to cover in today's episode what Anthony covid at the conference, which was the context of the global economy, long term trends in emerging markets, in the structural case for emerging markets, for the long-run characteristics of emerging markets, stock markets and also some of Anthony's preferred companies in emerging markets. So plenty to cover that hope you're ready. [00:03:12][27.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:03:12] Yeah, I did two sessions. So that's why there's so much stuff. [00:03:14][1.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:03:15] Not so much knowledge. They couldn't open it. [00:03:18][3.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:03:19] Exactly. Exactly. Jam it all in. [00:03:21][2.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:03:23] Anthony, before we get to all of that, whenever we spoke to an expert, we do like to hear the story of their first investment. We generally find there's a good story or a good lesson that comes out of it. So to kick us off today, can you tell us the story of your first investment? [00:03:35][12.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:03:36] Yes, I was thinking about this because obviously you sent me the question before we sat down and I was going to take you on a long journey about how I invested in Amazon in 2002. But obviously, that's not true. [00:03:50][13.3]

Bryce Leske: [00:03:51] And you can make copies of it, you know. [00:03:54][3.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:03:54] But I mean, the reason is, I mean, I'm a global macro guy, right? So the stock specific stuff is of listing less interest to where I've come from. So I don't have a good story. I'm sorry to say. [00:04:07][12.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:04:08] It doesn't have to it doesn't have to be a specific stock. We've had people invest in shape, goats. What else have we just the straight house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We've had some weird ones on on the show. Yeah. [00:04:19][11.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:04:20] Look, I mean I wish I could tell you a really interesting anecdote about how I, you know, my parents gave me 50 cents or a dollar for my dollar might account every week for school, but they never did. So, you know, in terms of the investing experience that I've had, it's been very much of one where I suppose you've got your superannuation, you keep a close eye on that, but very vanilla, boring. I can't say that I've picked a huge amount of winners or losers. I mean, the other thing to bear in mind is we're just so heavily compliant these days, we can't really take single stock exposure. I've never really done anything particularly exotic, you know, any spare cash. I had to tell you the truth. I spent traveling, probably went behind a bar in Europe. [00:05:11][50.8]

Speaker 2: [00:05:11] So that's the best thing. That's good advice. [00:05:13][1.8]

Anthony Doyle: [00:05:14] Yeah, the life experience. Right. So, yeah, I left Australia when I was twenty five, came back when I came back thirteen years later with a wife and three kids. So, you know, traveling was really a good experience for me. There you [00:05:26][12.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:05:27] go. Also super is an answer that no one has said before, but that's probably most people's first investment. Yeah, exactly. [00:05:33][6.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:05:34] Well, I mean, I started on the checkout at Target when I was fourteen, nine months, the bare minimum. And you're getting super from then, right. So, I mean, you have to pay attention to that, particularly given if you are fourteen and nine months and you're getting a little bit of super, it's going to be ten percent from the first of July. Twelve and a half percent in a couple of years' time. Just used the power of compounding on your side. You're not retiring for a long time. And think about, you know, probably Australians don't pay enough attention to how powerful super can be for them over a long period of time. [00:06:04][30.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:06:06] So, Anthony, let's start at the top with a bit of context around what's going on in the global economy at the moment. And the conversation obviously has to start with the covid response. What are your thoughts on or what do we need to know about the government's fiscal response to this crisis? [00:06:22][16.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:06:23] Yeah, I mean, it's been truly extraordinary the last 12 months. And it's only when you look back in reflection, do you recognize that there has been what we've lived through is a period of history that we haven't seen really since Spanish influenza after World War One. So it's something that we may see, again, we may not see again, but for an economy to be put on ice and for all of ours. To go into lockdown and kids not going to schools, I think is something that that none of us had ever envisaged. I mean, it was sort of a tiny, tiny risk. And even January, February last year, I don't think many people would have thought that 12 months, 13 months, 14 months later, we would have had the experience that we've had. So, I mean, when it comes to both setting interest rates, which we call monetary policy from the Reserve Bank of Australia when it comes to the government response, which we call fiscal policy in terms of Josh Frydenberg, Scott Morrison, and the Coalition government here in Australia, the federal government, truly extraordinary what we've seen, whether it be interest rates now zero points one of a percent, huge ramifications for your listener base, whether it be an accumulation of government debt and supporting the Australian economy through this extraordinary period. You know, those bills will come due some time and it's not going to be in the lifetime of the next three years when the federal government is reelected or not reelected. You know, it's going to be down the line. We're talking generations. I mean, the next generation is called Generation Elfy. That's my kids. You know, they're five. And I got twins that are three years old, generation Alpha, you know, they'll be paying these bills. So it's absolutely right that governments around the world, including our own, have stepped in to support Australians, particularly via job keeper in the labor market, support businesses through this tough time because it was a government-enforced recession because it was responding to a health epidemic pandemic. So, I mean, truly extraordinary. And we've seen really the goalpost shift a lot internationally and domestically. And that has huge ramifications for how we invest and how we think about investing over the long, long term. [00:08:32][128.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:08:33] Now, one thing that you touched on there was the debt load that governments around the world have sort of taken on to fund a lot of these programs. In your presentation, you talked about the difference between developed markets and emerging markets. So can you talk to that and how these, I guess, debt loads differ between these economies? [00:08:54][20.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:08:55] Yes. I mean, taking Australia, for example, we have had a fetish with a balanced budget as one other nation in the world, developed market nations in the world that has also had a similar bent in terms of fiscal policy, and that's Germany. So they had a policy of zero, which meant a balanced budget. We also were fixated on this balanced budget. So when I came back to Australia in 2018, I was amazed that the economy was slowing and there was still this fixation around, well, we've got to balance our books and, you know, we shouldn't be stimulating the economy, which just goes against everything that we sort of taught at uni or at high school. Even so, I mean, we will often hold our hand up and go where our government has a triple-A credit rating, which doesn't really mean much, to tell you the truth. Now, what matters more is that the price you're paying for the debt that's being issued, which is called a yield, and yields are at all-time lows or they have just bounced off all-time lows internationally. And we'll say we've got a triple-A credit rating, 50 percent debt to GDP. But that has come at a cost where Australia's household debt to GDP is the second highest in the world. So we've just left it up to another part of the economy. And you know what that financial asset is housed. Right? So we've got the silver medal there and we're working really hard on getting the gold medal. So Switzerland currently has that bit. You know, one legacy of this crisis will be higher debt, whether it be government, corporate, or household debt. Now, that compares and contrasts with what you're seeing in the emerging world where they're beginning their journeys of financial sophistication and financial development. So you don't necessarily have the same sort of credit and lending products that you would have available in a developed market like Australia or like America or like the UK, for example. But they're starting that journey. So what you've found is that in terms of whether it be government debt or, you know, for the majority of emerging markets, whether it be household debt or corporate debt tends to be far lower than what you'll see in developed markets. But, yeah, I mean, certainly leverage is one thing that we've seen increasing because guess what? Debt is cheap and it's one way to fuel economic growth. [00:11:09][134.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:11:11] So, Anthony, we're in a bit of a commodity supercycle at the moment with prices rising across the board. And, you know, conversations around inflation are really picking up as well. And we're seeing numbers in the US that were surprising. What are you thinking and what are you watching at Fidelity in terms of both commodities and inflation? [00:11:29][18.1]

Anthony Doyle: [00:11:30] I mean, I love this, right? So, I mean, you know, I love this inflation debate, deflation debate, growth versus value, small-cap versus large cap. For so long, it's been so boring for volatility with the ultra-low and, you know, not really. Much in way of action in terms of equity markets grinding higher, but I mean, the inflation versus deflation debate is one that is close to bond investors' hearts. And I spent a lot of my career in bond and fixed income and currency markets. And I mean, for me, it's unsurprising that we're seeing inflation move higher via commodity prices, because if you think about where we were during the pandemic, the whole world went into lockdown in that trade, totally stopped. The oil price went negative. So we forget this all this stuff was happening. People were paying to not take delivery of oil. So, you know, 12 months later, obviously, prices are higher and you get those base effects feeding through into inflation. But also what you've seen is we're still living through this pandemic. So one one commodity price close to Australia's heart is iron ore. And the iron ore price is high because China is relatively strong, the only economy that grew last year, and Brazil, another huge iron ore supplier, is offline because of it. So naturally, supply is contracted, demand has increased, prices increased. Eventually, what you tend to see in response to higher prices is supply response, inevitably overresponse. Too much supply comes on stream and you see big declines in commodity prices. But I mean, the big thing for your listeners is, you know, we'll talk about inflation and we'll talk about why interest rates are low because inflation is low. But you, you know, Ulisses, they'll be going so expensive to live right now. And the reason is, you know, if you think about what you spend your money in money on month in, month out, whether it's rent, whether it's utilities, whether it's rating, whether it's [00:13:34][123.7]

Speaker 2: [00:13:34] bills, [00:13:34][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:13:36] whether it's food, the stuff that you have to spend money on month in, month out, that's materially outpacing the official measure, which the RBA target CPI, the stuff that biases down the CPI, consumer price inflation is stuff that we import overseas and buy on a discretionary basis. So I'm talking about a new car. How often do you buy a new car? How often do you buy a new mobile phone? How often do you buy a new computer? And it's not that these things are getting cheaper necessarily, but they're getting better. So think about your Nokia 62 10. We used to play Snake versus an iPhone today. It's not that the iPhone is 90 percent cheaper, but it's 90 percent better. So the statistician will adjust for that. It's called her Donnally, adjusting for quality improvements and that's deflationary. So, I mean, what you have to recognize is that inflation, it is not a cost of living index. It's just a measure of the price of goods and services in an economy. So, I mean, when I've been talking to our clients, whether it be direct investors, whether it be financial advisors, whether it be superannuation funds, institutional clients, you know, pointing this out to them, that there is that disconnect between official inflation and the RBA saying we're cutting rates because inflation is low versus what people are actually paying via their cost of living. So you need to cut a long story short for us at Fidelity. This commodity price increase is entirely appropriate. The market's pricing in two percent inflation in Australia for the next five years. So it's not runaway inflation. It's at the lower end of the RBA target band. And with that in mind, I think that the inflation Esters are getting a lot of headlines at the moment. But those long-term trends, secular trends that are firmly entrenched, like technology, demographics, globalization, should continue to see a lead on inflation. But because we're in such extraordinary times, investors are definitely worried about it. [00:15:39][122.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:15:40] So, Anthony, that's a little bit about the context of a global economy. Now we want to move to emerge markets and what the opportunities look like there and how investors should think about it. [00:15:50][10.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:17:21] Yeah, and I can see why it means different things to different people. So the term emerging markets was first used in 1981 by an economist at one of the world economic agencies because it sounded better than Third World countries allowing all developing countries. So emerging markets I mean, the International Monetary Fund, which is the world's body of economists, will tell you that there are 140 emerging nations. Whereas when you look at the investable universe of, say, what the index providers will tell you. So an MSCI Emerging Markets Index, for example, they'll tell you there are 27 emerging market nations. So you go from 140, which is basically anyone that's not a developed market, according to the IMF. And they define that by looking at metrics like GDP per capita or net income per capita, the level of development within a nation in terms of infrastructure, and the institutional framework around that, like the rule of law versus MSCI, who are looking at the depth, liquidity, and breadth of the respective markets that they're looking at, whether it be equity or fixed income markets. So when we talk about emerging markets today, it's not in that pure economist's definition. It's in the market definition of what the index providers and what they incorporate within their index. That's our investable universe. So, as I said, there are twenty-seven nations dependent upon the level of sophistication of their financial markets, depth, breadth, and liquidity of those markets. [00:19:01][99.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:19:01] And just to really ground this for people listening, what are some of the big names in that basket of 27? Are we talking like China, Brazil, Russia? [00:19:08][6.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:19:09] Yeah, so are emerging markets is defined by so 80 percent Asia. So the typical. Sure. You've been there. Thailand, Indonesia, China, of course, Vietnam, for example, Singapore, then Korea is even there, which on many metrics is a developed nation. Yeah. [00:19:28][19.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:19:28] I wouldn't have thought of them as I know. [00:19:29][1.1]

Anthony Doyle: [00:19:30] Yes. South Korea. And then you've got AMEA, which is Eastern Europe, the Middle East and Africa. So that's around 15 percent of the index and then five percent is Latin America. So the Brazils of the world, you know, the other South American nations, Mexico, big one, of course, as well. [00:19:50][20.7]

Bryce Leske: [00:19:52] What are some of the key trends that you're seeing in emerging markets? [00:19:54][2.6]

Anthony Doyle: [00:19:56] Yes. So I suppose much like the rest of the world, what we're saying is this period where secular trends, when I say secular, these long-term trends have really been accelerated by covid, particularly, say, digital adoption. So there are some estimates that digital adoption, two years of acceptance of digital has been condensed into two months because of it. And, you know, in my own personal experience, never worked from home before. I was sent out the door in March last year with a laptop in my hand and did over 300 meetings on Zoome last year with clients. [00:20:33][37.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:20:34] Now, the question is, will you ever work from home again? [00:20:36][1.9]

Anthony Doyle: [00:20:37] Yeah. Yeah. [00:20:37][0.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:20:38] So, I mean, definitely, I think my working habits have changed, particularly with young kids and being able to help out a little bit more with the drop-offs and all the rest of it. And I think I'm fortunate to work in a role where I can have that flexibility. But certainly, I mean that the ASX roadshow has shown me that people still want that face to face human contact. You guys couldn't wait to get me in today. [00:21:01][22.8]

Speaker 2: [00:21:02] I say, can I [00:21:03][0.9]

Anthony Doyle: [00:21:03] just say I mean, he said, no way. No one put their hands on. Yeah, let's get to work. So, I mean, you've got these long-term trends that are reasonably easy to predict. Ironically, people will say the long term is harder to forecast in the short term. Right. I mean, I can forecast that I'm going to leave the studio and head off to work that short term. Where am I going to be in 10 years' time? That's hard to hard to forecast or speculate about. But there are these long term trends, whether it be, you know, superior demographics in emerging markets, whether it be that emerging markets are going to growth is going to surpass developed markets over a long period of time, whether it be that the average individual that resides in emerging markets is likely to get wealthier as those growth outcomes lead to higher standards of living, whether it be that consumer preferences in emerging markets are likely to adopt, say, Western habits like consuming. Protein's for the first time, so you have these long-term trends and what you often find is that the values of companies around those long-term trends can often deviate depending upon investor behavior. You can't look at investment markets without trying to understand human behavior as well. Now, of course, in terms of emerging markets, STEM graduates through the roof, patent applications on this sort of exponential trend versus the developed markets, which are flatlining all the risk in development in terms of companies investing in research and development going forward. It's, you know, predominantly in emerging markets as well. Where are developed market companies placing their bets for their own growth going forward? Huge consumer markets in Asia in particular. So you've got these long-term secular trends that if you can tap into. So you guys, you know, ice hockey great Wayne Gretzky. Yeah. Is the highest score legend. Right. And this how do you score so many goals in ice hockey or in hockey, as they call it, in Canada and North America? Well, I skate to where the puck is going, not to where it's been. Right. So this is a similar story in investing in emerging markets. Look at where these secular themes, secular trends are going. Identify companies that can tap into those themes and get in at the ground floor and skate to where the puck is going. And that's how you can really identify the winners of tomorrow versus the winners of yesterday, for example. [00:23:32][149.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:23:34] So just for people who missed your presentation at the ASX Investor Day, probably kicking themselves right now, but that's very kind. [00:23:43][9.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:23:45] What do you guys want? [00:23:45][0.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:23:47] But you mentioned trends in your slides so that emerging markets will drive global growth. They'll be resilient to capital outflows, technological innovators, younger and larger populations, rising wealth, less debt, growing consumer markets, attractive valuations. It's a pretty good recipe for success. What more do you want? [00:24:07][19.6]

Anthony Doyle: [00:24:07] Yeah. Yeah. [00:24:09][1.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:24:09] Think what we want is to hear what Anthony's favorite companies are in their markets. And don't worry, we are getting to that. And so there's a lot of, I guess, a lot of ingredients in the recipe for success. There is a lot of, you know, sort of demographic and economic factors that point emerging markets in the right direction. The question then becomes like, let's zoom in on the stock market and talk about how investors can participate in that growth and in that development. So, again, let's start, General, how do emerging market stock markets compare to more developed markets? And in particular, you mentioned valuations in your presentation. If you can sort of explain, I guess, a valuation gap if there is one. [00:24:55][45.3]

Anthony Doyle: [00:24:55] Yeah, so definitely emerging markets trade at a discount to developed markets. The reason is that generally there's more risk in emerging markets, whether it be geopolitical, economic, macro factors, inflation, interest rates, for example, institutional risk. So it is an area of the world that is at the riskier part of the investment spectrum, but you're rewarded via higher compensation for that risk. So there's no return without risk. All that exists today is return-free risk. That's all. That's all that exists. So once upon a time, we call risk-free cash. So you could generate you know, you could meet your investment goals by compounding cash at five percent a year-long gone. Those days are over. [00:25:44][48.9]

Anthony Doyle: [00:25:44] The boomers took that right to the boomers took that. And I lived in the housing market. So you got to think differently. You got to make your savings and invest, make your savings work harder for you. It's not enough to try and just save cash month and month out now, particularly if central banks are more happy to accept higher inflation because of high debt. So what you do in emerging markets is there's a higher what we call risk premium. You're compensated over a long period of time with higher returns. But of course, when you're investing in a riskier part of the world, you really have to do your bottom-up homework, your due diligence to avoid this scenario of blowups within your portfolio. Nothing will hurt you more than your company going to zero, which is what happens with equities in particular. So, I mean, when you are looking at investing in emerging markets, there is a higher premium, a higher reward on offer. You can mitigate that, which is what we try and do at Fidelity by being located in the region. You know, got 45 analysts there uncovering and looking at the universe of companies that we can invest in across those various continents. And emerging markets in general, the universe is about thirteen thousand companies when you're looking at the various geographic regions, the Asian market is very similar to the US market dominated by tech long-duration growth stocks. When you're looking at Latin America, for example, the one percent allocation to tech, most of it is basic materials, financials, similar to if you think about Achmea. So Eastern Europe, Middle East, Africa, more along the lines of commodities. So at this, when you're looking at emerging markets, it's very diverse, idiosyncratic, so very unique. Much like we wouldn't say the Australian market is the same as the British market and the same as the European market. It's the same in emerging markets. So a lot of opportunities there, but a lot of areas where you can make a misstep. So you have to come to this market with eyes wide open and find those managers or find those companies that can really do a job for your diversified portfolio of assets over a long period of time. [00:28:07][142.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:28:08] Well, that that leads nicely onto a question that I often have wondered about emerging markets. And, you know, in Australia, there's really and technology is breaking down a lot of barriers and making more stock markets accessible from Australia. But traditionally and still, for the most part, today are Australian investors have two choices. When they want to participate in emerging markets, they can find an active manager who's got a focus on emerging markets, or they can invest in an emerging markets index, like through an ETF or something. How do you think about that choice for investors? [00:28:45][36.8]

Anthony Doyle: [00:28:47] Yeah, so, I mean, obviously at Fidelity we have an active ETF, so you can buy that on the ASX. You can own that next to your after-pay shares. CBA shares the ticker is FEMA. So I mean, that's one way to get access to emerging markets. As I said this around thirteen thousand companies in the index, we own between 35 to 50 in a diversified portfolio of assets. So when your listeners are looking at buying or building a stock portfolio, modern portfolio theory suggests you can harness the benefits of diversification with as few as 12 stocks well-diversified, diversified across sector, country, region. You can do a really good job there. So you don't have to actually own a huge breadth of companies in order to harness the benefits of diversification. So that's what we do. You know, we take positions a long way away from the index. So typically our overlap with the MSCI Emerging Market Index is around 20 percent, um, you know, sometimes less, sometimes only 10 percent, because essentially what you'll find in an index is you're buying the good and the bad. And I've got no issues at all with passive investing. Hlophe investing index investing makes a lot of sense for a market like the S&P 500, you know, makes a lot of sense in those sort of developed markets where there's a lot of transparency and, you know, very strong governance around companies and how they disclose information on a quarterly basis. When looking at small cap investing, when you're looking at emerging market investing, Asian investing, fixed income investing, you've really got to be active because as I said, this is a part of the world that is more opaque and allows an active investor a higher likelihood of outperformance over a long period of time. That's less so in the US S&P 500, where there's a lot of eyes looking at Google. And so price discovery is a lot easier. So for me, what you'll find is that when you look at, say, EM, in particular, being active can be really beneficial, particularly relative to the index as the index is dominated by these slow-growing companies in regions that have really already emerged, like Korea, you know, huge behemoths that are really tapping into, say, what's going on in the developed world as opposed to, say, more specific risk, which is why you're buying you know, to harness some of those big secular themes that are ongoing. [00:31:27][160.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:31:28] I mean, looking at the MSCI Emerging Markets Index at the moment, it's, what, 37 percent. China 13 percent. Taiwan, 13 percent. Korea, 10 percent, India. So you really more than what, a 30 or about two-thirds of the exposure is coming from those four countries. You're excited by the opportunity in other parts of the emerging markets world. You're not getting a lot of returns driven by them. [00:31:55][27.1]

Anthony Doyle: [00:31:56] And I imagine most of your listeners are active investors right there. They're not just, you know, having a look at the ASX 200. Thinking, where can I pick those winners and potentially those 10 baggers over time, something that we do similarly across Fidelity? [00:32:09][13.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:32:10] Yeah, we've spoken to a few experts recently who had, you know, focusing on Indonesia, India, China. And it's becoming very clear to me anyway that an active approach is something that I think is more important than an index approach. And I think it's opportunities that you miss. If you go in there, [00:32:28][18.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:32:29] just know what you're doing, like know what you're getting. If indexing you're going to be it's going to be like the mega-cap. Chinese companies are really driving the index and you're not going to be exposed to any of these new emerging technology companies in any [00:32:41][12.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:32:42] one hundred baggers. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. [00:32:45][3.2]

Bryce Leske: [00:32:45] So to recap there, that's the Fidelity Global Emerging Markets Fund. It is available on the ASX. The ticker is Amex if you would like to get involved in what Fidelity Anthony is doing over there. So before we jump into some of your favorite emerging companies, this is the part that we're really excited about. We'll take a quick break to hear from our sponsors. [00:33:06][21.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:33:09] Price life is throwing a lot your way at the moment, managing a growing team, soon to be a growing family, and trying to keep me focused and productive every day. Not sure about [00:33:19][10.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:33:19] the growing family, but I can say that keeping you on the straight and narrow each day is a challenge here at the equity markets office. [00:33:25][5.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:33:26] Well, I may have found the perfect tool to keep me in line and to keep you productive. And that is the Microsoft 365 subscription, which will have you ready to take on whatever life throws [00:33:38][12.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:33:39] your way, which sounds appealing. Ren. You can get premium office apps and Outlook to boost your productivity, the All-In-One organizational hub. And that is something you definitely need. Plus to protect your important files and photos, which you never let me look at and access them across your devices with one full terabyte of one drive cloud storage. So Ren, I guess the question is, how will you make the most of your time? [00:34:03][23.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:34:03] Well, I guess I'm going to start by going to Microsoft 365 dot com slash to learn more and really everything is going to come from that. [00:34:13][9.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:34:15] So, Anthony, in your presentation, you said six of fidelities, favorite emerging market stocks. Let's go through them and I guess answer one, what they do and to sort of why you like them. What's the investment thesis? So let's start at the top one that I'm sure many of our listeners have heard, and that is the Alibaba Group. [00:34:35][19.6]

Anthony Doyle: [00:34:36] Yes. So as I said, I mean, sorry, as you said, I'm sure a lot of people are familiar with Alibaba, the world's largest e-commerce platform. But far beyond that in terms of, you know, one of the world's largest markets in China, you know, they've really integrated themselves into the daily life of the average person in China as well, whether it be B2B or B2C or C2C, you know, truly an overwhelming presence now in terms of what what the average Chinese person does on a day to day basis and what you found in China, their e payments market is 50 times the size of the US. So, I mean, I was in Shanghai a couple of years ago and everything is online. You know, you couldn't pay renminbi if you tried for a coffee. So Alibaba is truly an outstanding company, one of the largest in the index. It probably makes sense to have some exposure there because they are a dominant player. Obviously, more recently, there's been some regulatory risk around that. We actually saw some of that occurring. You've seen a 30 percent price correction. So, again, I mean, when we're investing in these companies, we're looking on a three to five year time horizon in terms of sort of generating gains for our holdings. But if you're a long term investor, makes a lot of sense to have a look at Alibaba. [00:36:03][87.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:36:05] I guess regulatory risk or political risk is a really interesting one when it comes to emerging markets. You said you foresaw some of that with Alibaba. Like how do you factor that into your analysis? And I guess a lot of it can be arbitrary in some ways like a leader can decide something and things change that it's hard to forecast. How do you factor that risk in? [00:36:28][23.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:36:28] Well, it's the same everywhere, right? I mean, you sometimes forget in the US Congress was a storm this year. Right. So, I mean, when I say we foresaw regulatory risk around Alibaba, it's in that it's not a pure tech play. As I said, because they're more of a conglomerate now, particularly if you think about some of the payment services and financial services that they offer. So it makes sense. I mean, financial services are one of the most heavily regulated industries globally, and particularly banks and financial companies, too. So it makes sense that, you know, you've got regulatory risk around the big tech names in the US as well. You've got taxation risk around that, too. So ultimately, whether you decide to pull the trigger or not on allocating capital to a company, once you've done all your due diligence, once you've done all your fundamental analysis, once you really kick the tires, it comes down to valuation. And how do you expect the share price to perform over your time horizon? And if it ticks those boxes in terms of valuation, sentiment, fundamentals, you know, allocate. So that's one of the reasons why I mean, we've been traditional, whether it be in our A.M. fund, the Emerging Markets Fund or Asia Fund underweight tech, but because we've seen some of that correction, we've started to have a bit of a nibble now. [00:37:49][80.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:37:49] Yeah, nice. The next one is also a Chinese company, one that I've never heard of before. And that's leaning. [00:37:56][6.3]

Alec Renehan: [00:37:57] Oh, that's why you're here because those millennials call yourselves. I feel like I'll know all about it after [00:38:07][10.3]

Anthony Doyle: [00:38:09] one of our favorite companies or one of the best-performing companies in our fund. So leaning, well, where do I start? 1984 Olympic Games, Los Angeles leaning China's first Olympic gold medalist. Well, yeah, won three golds, two silver, and a bronze. So he's known as the prince of gymnastics in China. Household name. I travel around Australia. No one's heard of him. Yeah. So I forgive Aussies for that. So I move on to 2008. Did you watch the Beijing opening ceremony at the Olympics? [00:38:45][36.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:38:46] Yeah, I guess. I don't know if I did dramas. [00:38:49][2.9]

Anthony Doyle: [00:38:50] I guess he lit the Olympic cauldron. [00:38:52][2.1]

Bryce Leske: [00:38:53] Leaning. [00:38:53][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:38:55] So basically Leaning. Who is chairman? He was the CEO is now the chairman. He started this company when he retired from gymnastics. So what am I going to do? And so he started this company, which was sportswear and equipment manufacturing company. And his dream was that one day the Chinese Olympic team would wear leaning branded tracksuit into the opening ceremony. So he started this company after retiring from gymnastics, of course, just as China was opening up to the rest of the world. And this has been a real success story for our fund, in particular in that one of our Hong Kong based analysts identified that before the Olympics in 2008. They've just been really manufacturing a lot of really cheap type items that were sort of in the bargain basement bin. And there was this turnaround story where they were trying to shed themselves of that reputation of, you know, being a lower cost, lower quality type producer of sportswear items and manufacturing items to one where there is more high end. So, you know, one strategy that they did was they opened up another brand called China Leaning and China Leaning was there to sort of really compete with the Adidas as of the world, Reebok, Nike's of the world. They participated for the first time in the Paris fashion show. They sponsored Shaquille O'Neal. So Shaquille O'Neal, Dwyane Wade had leanings. So they're all in the NBA athletes. So, I mean, a huge presence domestically in China. And what you've also seen over the last couple of years is trade tensions between the US and China. So increasingly, Chinese consumers are becoming more nationalistic and buying Chinese designed and manufactured items for the Chinese millennial generation in particular. So when China was opening up to the rest of the world, older generations saw wearing a pair of Nike's as particularly aspirational, whereas millennials and Gen Z coming through China today, they don't care. They're more than happy to own a pair of leanings. So leading, you know, fantastic success story I presented for the ASX in twenty nineteen. It was my top pick. Since then it's up to three hundred ninety-seven per cent, which I'll be reminding everyone about that. Hopefully, no one asked me about anything else. So there's a stock story from earlier on, but um, you know, a real success story there and hopefully one that can continue. But the fact that I can go around Australia and say who's leaning and no one's heard of him and he's a household name in China, probably tells you the opportunities that your. Missing by just not being embedded in that region and guess what, it's not in the index, it is now because of how the share prices perform point one percent of the index. [00:41:53][178.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:41:54] So there you go. Fascinating. Well, if we hadn't heard of lightning, we've both definitely heard of this next company, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Company. Yeah. [00:42:03][9.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:42:04] So, well, if you both heard about it, I'm sure your listeners have as well. So I went off on it for two. I think [00:42:08][3.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:42:08] some. Not all of us. Yeah. All right. OK, yeah. Give it a brief explanation. [00:42:13][4.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:42:13] Yeah, sure. Sure. So tech manufacturing company, if your listeners going for a run got their iPhone on the semiconductors and the chip is probably come from Taiwan Semiconductor on their iPhone or on their Samsung phone. Yeah. You guys have a couple of Macs in front of me. The Chipin that's come from Taiwan Semiconductor, really best in class, you know, speculation that semiconductors are everything to new oil. But some of the some are saying semiconductors are the new oil. It's a commodity. Huge shortage at the moment. Their main rivals in terms of supply are Samsung and IBM. IBM during the pandemic last year threw their hands up, said we can't fulfill our client's orders, actually became a client of Taiwan Semiconductor. So they made one of their main rivals, became their client. You know, truly extraordinary. They updated us a few months ago that in R&D they only have 100 billion US dollars penciled in on R&D in the next three years. We've never seen a company invest that much before, far and away from the dominant player in terms of, you know, tech and leading the charge on semiconductors and the share price has responded accordingly. Of course. So huge company yet again. It's the largest company in the index. So if people haven't heard of it, you know, it's ingrained in our everyday lives and it's only going to accelerate as we see continued tech adoption and automation optimization of our lives. So, you know, one example I use is you can roll out of bed and you can order a coffee on your phone now, you know, from your kitchen and the coffee machine will make your cappuccino for you or you're flat white so you can get up to your kitchen and have your flat white. But there's a semiconductor in the coffee machine that [00:44:01][107.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:44:02] just does that with the uber eats. [00:44:02][0.9]

Bryce Leske: [00:44:05] It's a fascinating industry, the semiconductor. We did a bit of a deep dove recently on the shortage that's going on. And I mean, there are car manufacturers who are leaving out like nav systems. Yeah. You know, what would be now a default sort of function in a car they just can't put in. Yes, they don't have a semiconductor talking. Even connected toothbrushes are now piling on. What is a connected toothbrush like? Everything is just connected. [00:44:32][26.8]

Anthony Doyle: [00:44:33] Well, we just watch the Wiggles when we're brushing our teeth, [00:44:35][2.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:44:38] we assume everyone. [00:44:39][0.6]

Anthony Doyle: [00:44:39] Just my wife and I. [00:44:42][3.6]

Bryce Leske: [00:44:44] So the next one on the list is TTR or Tektronix Industries. [00:44:49][4.6]

Anthony Doyle: [00:44:50] You heard of this company, Novant or Hong Kong domiciled. Now, have you heard of Hoover the vacuum. [00:44:56][5.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:44:56] Yeah. [00:44:56][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:44:57] Yeah. You heard Horibe. [00:44:57][0.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:44:58] Yes, Tecktonik own the design, design, manufacture, and a suite of other brands as well. So I mean obviously in lockdown. I've been heading up to Bunnings, which is, you know when you have kids, it's your one respite. You can get up there just it's like Disneyland, middle-aged dads. So yeah, in lockdown. I've gone out and bought some Bunning's hedge trimmers and stuff like that. You know, Tecktonik industries, um, design, manufacture and produce Rovi products and other products as well. So, yeah, he's a company which again, in terms of that sort of covid trade, we all went out, we couldn't travel anymore. So we started buying stuff to improve houses or do a bit of gardening or the rest of it. He's a company that benefits from that but trades at a discount because of where it's domiciled in Hong Kong. But you're really getting a lot of, say, DMN growth rates, but also M. M, as we increasingly see it, consumers and preferences in emerging markets, the huge markets that they are adopted develop market consumer preferences as well. [00:46:07][68.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:46:08] That's fascinating. I didn't know that either of those brands was owned by that company. Well, I'd never heard of that company, so obviously, I didn't know. Yeah, exactly. There you go. Well, another company that I'll admit I haven't heard of is African Rainbow Minerals. Yep. [00:46:21][12.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:46:21] Yep. It's all about it. Yeah, of course. You've heard of BHP. [00:46:24][2.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:46:25] Yeah. So tell me that friggin rainbow. I know that's not true, [00:46:30][4.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:46:32] I mean, the reason I bring up BHP is you can buy BHP today, obviously benefiting from the commodity price increase as well. Um, the uplift in commodity prices by BHP on a. If 30 times so the price to earnings ratio, so after 30 years, you'll get your share price back, you can buy African rainbow minerals, a similar type of company to BHP, not as large, of course, but getting you to know, they mined the usual type of commodities, gold, lithium, you know, going into batteries, platinum. You know, these are commodities that are used in industrial use. You can buy Africa and buy minerals domiciled in South Africa on pay of six times. Wow. Wow. So it's just too cheap to ignore. That's a pure value type trade. Right? This sort of cyclical economic growth, returning commodity prices higher, pay six times really cheap. But get into many of those themes that say BHP is getting too or Rio Tinto is getting too as well. So you buy it on a lot cheaper valuation, which is generally the case in GM. And then the opportunity to generate those long-term growth outcomes are far higher than, say, BHP. We're probably going to be slow and steady returns for the next five years. [00:47:47][74.9]

Alec Renehan: [00:47:48] This might be a dumb question, but why doesn't a bigger mining company buy that at a six times valuation? And then, you know, if BHP is going to 30 times earnings multiple, just add their earnings and get a valuation bump out of that? [00:48:00][12.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:48:00] Yeah, well, they could. They could. Right. Um, so I guess a lot of it comes down to, as I've been speaking about earlier, you know, the institutional framework around it and whether they're willing to go into South Africa, take on that country risk, take on and particularly now, I guess it's a pretty risky proposition because we are still living through the pandemic. We'll get through it. You know, it'll be, you know, much like, you know, I was in Dublin during the GFC, so I was working on a bond and currency desk there in 2008. We were worried about cash coming out of ATM machines and looking back like, well, you know, now Ireland's booming, absolutely booming. And, you know, whether it's in the euro debt crisis. And, you know, Greece had to have a 50 percent haircut on its debt. Any luck? Or you wouldn't go to Greece because you couldn't get out. It was concerned about planes stop flying and they stopped flying in pharmaceuticals and things like that to Greece. So, you know, the noise is there today, but we will get through it. You know you have to, I suppose, have faith in the ability of humans and the human race to continue to adapt and evolve and get through it. So, again, I think, you know, I think you make a really interesting point. Maybe you could. I mean, we had BHP in the offices yesterday and CEO and CFO, so we should have had you in. [00:49:16][75.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:16] Yeah. Look, I'm sure a lot of questions. I'm asking someone a lot smarter in the mining industry questions. [00:49:22][5.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:49:22] I'm going to go back to Justin, Justin, who's our mining analyst. Like, I go back to the office and I'm going to post it to you, OK? [00:49:29][6.9]

Anthony Doyle: [00:49:30] And I'll give you the answer. [00:49:31][1.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:49:32][0.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:49:32] Look, if a mining company does buy them now, their CEO is obviously listening. Yes. They have to come to the show. [00:49:38][5.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:49:38] The show would surprise me. [00:49:39][1.0]

Bryce Leske: [00:49:40] So Anthony would close out the six stocks. And this is one that Mary Manning from Ellerston Capital actually said was the best company she's ever seen. Yeah. And that is HDFC Bank. [00:49:51][10.6]

Anthony Doyle: [00:49:51] Yeah. I mean, we love it as well. So it's across a number of our portfolios at Fidelity. So, Mary, we're in good company there, so. Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess you first have to start off with the scenario in India at the moment, which is devastating and first and foremost a humanitarian crisis. So, you know, with that in mind, we have, you know, a lot of I have a lot of colleagues in Mumbai and India. We have one of the largest research teams of any international investment manager in India. So, you know, it's absolutely devastating what's going on. But, you know, putting that all into context, HDFC is an outstanding bank, um, you know, really best in class in India. And I talk to clients, I would say, you know, got forty-nine million customers. Forty-nine million customers. It's twice the population of Australia, sort of, you know, huge deposit franchise branches. I think they've got, um, seven, 7000 branches throughout India, you know, huge domestic footprint. And, you know, India will be the largest economy one day in the world. Demographics are destiny. So unlike China, where demographics are deteriorating so that the Chinese authorities are putting a lot of emphasis on robotic adoption to sort of fill in the lack of humans that will eventually the lack of workers that they're going to find in India is the reverse. So, again, a bank financial institution that's well placed to tap into some of those longer term themes that I've been talking about today. Yeah, I've got one more for you if you want. [00:51:28][96.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:51:28] I will never say no to a stock pick, but far away. [00:51:31][3.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:51:32] Yeah, I just thought speaking to you guys now, something might be close to your heart. Yeah. What's the world's most popular spirit,. [00:51:40][8.4]

Bryce Leske: [00:51:41] Gene? [00:51:41][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:51:42] Incorrect. [00:51:42][0.0]

[00:51:43] Oh, It's that in China, this is going to annoy me. We've just done a live show on industry and I had it and I've lost it. So just pull us out of this misery. [00:51:58][14.5]

Anthony Doyle: [00:52:02] Baijiu. [00:52:02][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:52:03] So, I mean, this company. Watch out, Murti. It's not in our emerging market funds in our Asian fund. So the Fidelity Asia Fund, which you can buy on the ASX as an M fund, is something different, but you won't see it as a unit trust. But the Fidelity Asia Fund, it owns a company called CARGILE Murti. So it's the premium Baijiu, as I said, the world's most populous spirit. I mean we think it's a whisky I thought was whisky was the world's most popular spirit. But we're wrong. So this is a drink that is drunk at celebrations, whether it be, you know, finishing a deal or a wedding or a family celebration and you just shoot it throughout your dinner, but you're looking at for the premium stuff. Seven hundred and fifty US dollars a bottle of wine [00:52:53][49.7]

Alec Renehan: [00:52:54] Wow [00:52:54][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:52:54] because it's produced from this, you know, special strain where the water is pure. [00:53:00][5.8]

Bryce Leske: [00:53:01] So they say. [00:53:01][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:53:02] So it's like champagne, right. A champagne region. It's so quiet Samiti. They dominate this region in China, which produces Baijiu. So that's been a real standout performer in our Fidelity Asia Fund. [00:53:17][15.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:53:18] We should get one of those seven hundred fifty dollar bottles. [00:53:20][1.8]

Anthony Doyle: [00:53:21] Yes. [00:53:21][0.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:53:22] Well, I went on I mean, I went on, I went on Dan Murphy to see if I could get any, which puts me back when I was in Shanghai, I went into the linin store to buy a jumper, wear it around the office as it was. Two hundred US dollars said no way I got kids to feed. So I just left it there. Tso I went on Dan Murphy's to find some Bijiu but the quite emotive stuff, um, you know, extremely expensive I guess. Well, it comes down to consumer preferences, but there's a local company making it up in Queensland, um, so you can get three, three little taster bottles. So yeah. Maybe people will send in, see what they make of it. [00:54:00][38.6]

Alec Renehan: [00:54:01] Yeah. Great. Send anything in there. [00:54:03][2.5]

Alec Renehan: [00:54:05] Well, Anthony, look, we have almost come to the end of our time. We do like to end with the the same final three questions. But before we do, first of all, we want to say a massive thank you for joining us. Secondly, we want to remind everyone that if they want Anthony in the team to help give them some exposure to the emerging market, the world of emerging markets, the ASX ticker is FEMA, Amex. And finally, if people want to learn more about you, want to follow you online, is there any anywhere they should be going? [00:54:35][30.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:54:35] Yeah. So Fidelity.com.au Is the best place. I'm on Twitter. I'm on LinkedIn. [00:54:41][5.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:54:42] What's your Twitter handle. [00:54:42][0.8]

Anthony Doyle: [00:54:43] Uh, it's, uh, DoyleAUD [00:54:45][1.8]

Alec Renehan: [00:55:05] Um, well we'll get into these final three questions. The first one is, do you have any books that you consider must read? [00:55:12][7.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:55:12] The most the best book I read last year during this pandemic shut down. And in terms of, you know, getting back to the more Dow part of our conversation, debt and leverage. And the rest of it was a book by Stephanie Kelton. You must have heard it before. It's called, um, it's called The Deficit Myth. Now, it's pretty it's not too intense in terms of, um, you know, it's not too sophisticated in terms of economic jargon or anything like that. I think it's pretty commonsensical. I think it's not too hard to read. But basically just talking about how central banks can buy government debt, how they can print money, how governments can fiscally expand, and why it doesn't matter. [00:55:55][43.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:55:56] We could have you on for a whole another episode on modern monetary theory. [00:55:59][3.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:55:59] Yeah, well, you want me back, [00:56:00][1.0]

Alec Renehan: [00:56:02] but we don't have time to get into it now. [00:56:04][1.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:56:04] That next time. Next time. Yeah. Yeah. [00:56:06][2.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:56:08] So, yeah. So that's called the deficit method. And the other book, um, I really enjoyed was a book by a brain surgeon who was working on working in the NHS for free in his entire career, maybe 35 or 40 years. So I mean my kids were all born in London on the NHS, you know, fantastic. Um, you know, public health service there. So he's a brain surgeon. Put some perspective on life. You know, when you think, oh, maybe one of your stocks is down or, you know, he's a guy doing brain surgeon and spine surgery and some of the stories that he has. You know, I just think, you know, getting back to, you know, my views on humanity and just bring everything back into perspective, um, that, you know, I think that's a really important thing to do. So that's called Do No Harm by Dr. Henry Marsh. [00:56:57][49.1]

Alec Renehan: [00:56:58] Right. To two great recommendations. The next question, in 60 seconds or less, what's the best company you've ever come across? [00:57:07][8.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:08] A best company I've ever come across? [00:57:09][1.2]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:12] 60 seconds or less. There goes 20. I'm not sure, but I know you sent me the questions before, but I guess the best companies, company equity mate investors. [00:57:23][11.4]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:24] Okay, that's a tough question to answer. I was thinking about giving a plug to my dad's company. But I won't. [00:57:32][8.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:57:33] So we've had several bruited Bill Browder gave a plug to his son's company. [00:57:36][3.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:37] Oh, yeah. Yeah. [00:57:37][0.8]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:38] Well, if anyone has any stainless steel manufacturing that they want to be done or building a brewery, my dad, he does all that. So it's called triple nine stainless. They're at Granville. [00:57:47][9.5]

Bryce Leske: [00:57:48] So he sent you the invoice for the flight. [00:57:50][1.7]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:51] Send it to him. [00:57:51][0.4]

Alec Renehan: [00:57:52] It also could have said fidelity. [00:57:55][3.3]

Anthony Doyle: [00:57:56] Oh yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Fidelity, of course. [00:58:02][5.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:58:03] All right. Well, final question. If you think back to your younger self, you know, before you left Australia for your traveling, investing in bars all around the world. Yeah. What advice would you give your younger self? [00:58:17][14.0]

Anthony Doyle: [00:58:18] So, yeah, I mean, I love this question because I sort of have been thinking about it a lot with three young kids. And my oldest boy, Oscar, he started school this year. And so one of the things I would tell my younger self and my sons and my daughter is just have a go have a go at life, you know, just don't be standing in the background. And, you know, you guys had to go, you know, starting this podcast. And probably there have been some ups and downs. Same with Oscar. As you know, they've got the choir. So just go along, have a go. And he had to go. And then he said, my heart told me I don't like it. So but at least he had a try. And I think in looking back in my own life, I probably didn't put myself forward for enough things at school in particular. And then the switch flipped at uni. And I just got involved in everything, even when in my career, you know, I started at Macquarie Bank running faxes from the twenty seventh floor of the building in Bond Street to the 11th floor. That was my job. And then I got to know the Aussie equity team, Fixed-Income Team. And I carried that into when I finished my degree at Macquarie Macquarie Uni, I got a role as a graduate economist and then, you know, carried that into working on a bond and currency desk in Dublin and then moving to London at the height of the GFC. So just having a go and getting involved and don't stand back and, you know, make yourself known and speak up. [00:59:43][85.2]

Alec Renehan: [00:59:44] that's all really good advice. But I'm just stuck on the fact that Macquarie would have you hire someone to run flat. Fox is with twenty seven eleven, just fox in [00:59:53][8.4]

Speaker 2: [00:59:53] between the floors. It was cheaper to do and I just love it. [01:00:00][7.5]

Bryce Leske: [01:00:00] Anthony, a great way to interview. There's no doubt that emerging markets are an exciting opportunity for a lot of the equity markets community. And, you know, you've provided a bunch of valuable information for us today. Fascinating conversation, thoroughly enjoyed it. And certainly appreciate your time and we'd love to have you back on. So cheers. [01:00:16][15.9]

Anthony Doyle: [01:00:17] Cheers. Thanks, guys. [01:00:18][0.8]

Speaker 5: [01:00:19] Equity Means Investing Podcast is a product of equity meets media. All information in this podcast is for education and entertainment purposes only. It is not intended as a substitute for professional finance, legal or tax advice. The hosts of Equity Mates Investing podcast are not financial professionals and are not aware of your personal financial circumstances before making any financial decisions. You should read the product disclosure statement and if necessary, consult a licensed financial professional. Do not take financial advice from a podcast. More information had to the disclaimer page on Equity Mates website where you can find ASIC resources and find a registered financial professional near you in the spirit of reconciliation, equity meets media and the hosts of Equity Mates Investing podcast acknowledge the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people today. [01:00:19][0.0]

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