Recognising financial red flags

Carmel Moorhead: [00:00:00] Welcome to our third episode of Mapei Love where we talk money and Relationships. I'm Carmel and I'm joined with my sister Zoe. [00:00:28][28.7]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:00:29] Hello, as always. We'd like to start off by acknowledging the traditional custodians of the land in which we are recording and listening to this podcast on. We want to acknowledge the elders past, present and emerging. So today we're talking about financial red flags in a relationship [00:00:43][14.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:00:44] because 31 percent of people in a relationship have hidden financial secrets from their partner, according to Canstar. And although this may seem like a small percentage, three percent of people in relationships have secret accounts from their partner that other people aren't aware of. But I sure wouldn't want to be in that three percent. [00:01:01][16.6]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:01:02] Just going to wave that red flag right here, right now. [00:01:04][2.1]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:01:05] Why do you have a secret account? [00:01:06][0.9]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:01:06] No, I'm just acknowledging that it's a red flag waving my card. [00:01:10][3.6]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:01:12] But what do you mean by a financial red flag? [00:01:14][1.9]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:01:15] Well, I consider financial red flag to be something that you see in the early stages of relationship down the track and you think, oh, that doesn't feel right to me. That doesn't look good to me. And it might be a sign that bad things on the horizon, bad things get to [00:01:30][15.0]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:01:30] be bumps, if you will. [00:01:31][0.8]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:01:32] So everyone's idea of red flags is different. But we're just going to discuss a few that we went to our friends and ask, what kind of red flags do you consider? One person said when someone has multiple credit cards [00:01:43][11.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:01:45] or overspending above, that means. [00:01:46][1.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:01:47] Yep, or saying things like I and my friends do this sometimes not just in romantic relationships, but they might say, you know, you've agreed to go to an event and they might say, oh, I can't pay until my payday. I'm broke until Thursday this week. [00:02:01][14.6]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:02:02] Well, I think as well, a lot of my friends are just joining the workforce now when we are a lot of casual workers. So that's actually not that alarming to me. I feel like a red flag is different depending on what person it is. I think it depends on your personal preferences. [00:02:16][13.6]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:02:16] Yeah, I guess so. And like, if you're an overspender, say, and you meet someone on a first date and they're an overspender, then winwin, everyone's spending [00:02:24][7.7]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:02:28] Another example that a friend gave us was meeting someone and discussing finances. And they might give you a bit of insecurity or they might say mansplaining to you, like, oh, this is how I do things and this is what I think you should do and not really encouraging you or respecting your own ways with money. [00:02:45][16.9]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:02:45] A lot of my female friends have seen this when they're confident with their money and how they're spending it and they go on a diet or they talk to a male counterpart or could be female, but they get mansplaining for what they're doing. And they're like, bro, I know I've already said this. I'm doing it. I've put my money in this situation. [00:03:01][15.7]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:03:02] Yeah. And in our previous interview, we spoke to Glenn here, a financial adviser, and he gave us an example where he was very good with money. That was his career. And he was dating someone who wasn't very good with money. But although they've got different approaches to money, they were able to work together and communicate and come to a common goal. But a red flag for me is when you are not able to talk about it and you are able to reach those common goals. [00:03:25][23.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:03:26] Yeah. Or if you feel guilty for spending your own money and someone's making you feel guilty or making you feel insecure about how you want to spend your money and what your financial goals are. [00:03:35][9.0]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:03:35] So one of my friends sent us a voice message and we're going to try to pull out and he's going to explain a red flag that he saw in his relationship. [00:03:42][6.7]

Paul: [00:03:43] My name is Paul. I'm approximately four and a half years old because after 30 week Mountain Dog Years and currently I'm living in London, I work in admin, clerical, full time. I guess I'd call myself pretty much a regular guy. I've been lucky. I haven't, you know, had to contend with anyone else's sexually transmitted debt or anything like this. So I'm lucky like that. But I, I was once chatting with this guy and I won't call it dating, but we'd caught up a few times and he seemed friendly enough and I lent him some money because he said he needed it to tidy Mozah and he said, Oh yeah, and I'll pay you back on a certain date, which we agreed. And when I asked him about it, he got snooty. And I'm like, Don't get upset at me for holding you accountable. As I've become older, I've become a lot more confident in telling someone that actually I'm not really interested in meeting up with them. And I know when I was younger, that felt awkward. [00:04:49][65.9]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:04:50] I really like Paul's vibe because he's not saying, oh, woe is me, I'm a victim. I lent someone money and they didn't give it back. But he's being like, no. I said, give it back to me on this date, and he's standing up for himself. I personally don't know if I would give money in that certain situation. I think he was being pretty generous there. But everyone's got different views on that. [00:05:10][20.2]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:05:11] I probably lend someone some money. I don't think that money is that important to them. I always have the best expectation that they'll pay me back, but it depends on how much like I'm not going to lend someone a couple hundred bucks, but I probably do it up to like 50 pretty happily and not really expect it to be paid back. [00:05:32][21.0]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:05:33] Yeah, it depends on the circumstances. Like if it was you. I mean, I've had times where I for some reason couldn't access money, an account like Internet down or something. And you transferred me money and then I transferred you back. We have that relationship, but I don't know if I would with a complete stranger. [00:05:47][14.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:05:48] Did you want to transfer it back to a couple of weeks? So we've talked about red flags, what they look like, how they look to different people and how everyone responds to them differently. What we really want to learn is what to do once you see a red flag in a relationship. And so that's why we reached out to Sarah of Sheep Psychology, which is for sexual health and intimacy psychology services. We spoke to Sarah all about financial red flags and how to respond to them. [00:06:13][25.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:06:14] Sarah practices primarily in Fitzroy, Melbourne, and we absolutely loved this interview. I found Sarah amazing and very eloquent in how she phrased things on very sensitive topics. We're going to just play the whole interview through and then come back at the end and talk about what we would able to take away. [00:06:33][19.1]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:06:35] So why don't we start off with you telling us a little about who you are, what it is you do, and a bit about ships? [00:06:39][4.2]

Sarah Asheton: [00:06:40] Yes, sir. I'm the director and the founder of Ships. It stands for Sexual Health and Intimacy Psychological Services. So it's a first practice in Australia. And as far as I know, the world that focuses specifically on sexual health and intimacy through a psychological lens. So this means that we have psychologists using evidence based psychological frameworks and treatment to address issues that relate to sexual health and an intimacy and how mental health might intersect with them. We also advertise ourselves as being king, friendly poly family, LGBTI people, inclusive sex, positive and disability inclusive. So we often get people coming to ships because they want to feel safe and because they're part of these communities and they might be seeking more kind of support for some mental health related issue rather than a sexual issue. So they're kind of the two broadband's of clientele that we address. So what [00:07:34][54.1]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:07:34] would you say is your demographic, your clients like age wise, gender wise, do you see trends of like more maybe more females or males or non binary [00:07:43][8.8]

Sarah Asheton: [00:07:43] on the whole for psychology treatment in general? And in terms of our target market, the majority of our clients are CIS women between the ages of twenty five and thirty five, and then the left portion is sort of scattering, sort of mostly men and then 20 percent of men, binary transfer. [00:08:03][19.9]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:08:04] And so out of that sort of demographic, what percentage of your clients have financial difficulties or have come to you with financial difficulties that has affected their mental health? [00:08:14][9.5]

Sarah Asheton: [00:08:14] I think the thing to say from the outset is that finances are intertwined with relationships. So if we think about relationships, relationships are an exchange of energy. And if we think about what money is, in its essence, it's modifiable energy. So you go out, you invest time, money, emotional input. You might have spent time previously on learning and putting time and Energy into education. So there's also kind of a dick that you're putting into that time as well. And then in exchange, you get money, you get cash, right. So if we think about what relationships involve, then bold us investing in another person, whether that be emotionally, whether that be in terms of the time and effort we put in, whether that's in terms of the focus and physical energy in our life. Right. So money is one way that we can do that. So, of course, we're seeing people for relationship issues. Money is always part of the way that people function relationships because it's how people function in life. [00:09:13][59.1]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:09:14] So do you find that when people are sort of having these problems with money in their relationships, is there a trend of them not discussing money with their partner? [00:09:22][7.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:09:23] I think what's interesting is that a lot of the time, people both have independently a relationship with money that they learn from a young age, maybe modeled by our parents and through some of those early experiences that we have in our life. But we also learn how we behave in relationships. And a lot of these women learn to be self sacrificing and they learn to be subservient in relationships. And this is kind of a flow on effect from perhaps what was modeled by their parents and what they saw their mothers, because that was really part of gender and cultural norms a generation ago. So what women learn and this is all subconsciously right, is in order to be lovable, in order to be a good partner, you need to be self sacrificing. You need to be subservient. And if we look historically about gender roles and finance in. Men who went out and earned money and it was women who were engaged in unpaid labor and such as domestic duties and looking after children. And so men had control over finances and women often had to ask for money. Right. Though often not involved in financial discussions. So if there's any kind of mirroring or anything that is learned from their parents, then oftentimes even women of our generation have some of these ideas internalized. So that really translates to a lot of complex things when it comes to money. So one thing that I hear people speak about is perhaps if a woman is really doing quite well financially, she might worry how it might feel for her partner who's earning less, how that's going to impact on the dynamic of the relationship, like, oh, will they be will they be intimidated? Will this be a turn off or even just in the process of dating? Right. And then it might make discussions about money really difficult as well, because it becomes a sensitive topic, because perhaps the men, these men, there's an attachment to ego, to their perception of masculinity. So it can be a really sensitive topic on many, many levels for this reason. And they might be a tendency to sort of say, well, actually, I won't invest in understanding money or I won't invest in finances because that's not aligned with these kind of gendered perceptions. Right. So also, women are not enabling themselves with knowledge and understanding. And then if we think about, OK, if they have learned to be self sacrificing, as soon as there's an opportunity to do that when it comes to money, perhaps it might be the case that lots of women will easily give away money to not just the their partner, but perhaps their partner's family, and that that's something that they do without understanding the importance of their own boundaries and their own value. If you don't understand your own value, then you're also not understanding the value of your time, the value of your energy, and therefore your value and the relationship that that has with money. So there's all sorts of complex things that's happening with money, but it usually is all connected with the existing kind of perception of yourself, your own value and the perception that you have of boundaries within relationships. So you really start to see some patterns in terms of people's psychological makeup and what they do with their money. [00:12:35][192.7]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:12:36] And do you think that because of this psychological makeup in this value that they're putting on it, do you think that's why money is such a difficult sort of topic to discuss within a relationship or a community? Because people are putting more they're relating their value to the value of the money they've got in their possession. [00:12:52][16.3]

Sarah Asheton: [00:12:53] I think something interesting that happens a lot of the time is that people often assume that the people think the same way that they do about money. And if you think about all the money behaviors that exist in our everyday life, so you go out to dinner with a group of friends that do you all pay for what you had to eight days, split the bill evenly between you or someone kind of generous and goes shout it. And then you guys might shout next time. And so there are all these different behaviors like, oh, what's a priority when it comes to spending money? So you have these bills do. But maybe for one person all it's actually worth more to go out and have fun and have some drinks with their friends because I really want to blow off some steam and they're not thinking about the responsibilities that they have. So it really in every sort of section of life, you start to have all these kind of money behaviors that we may not even really be conscious of. And so if you look at then what happens in a relationship is that you're with another person who has completely different money behaviors than you, and then you've got to figure out a way to make them work and to understand where that other person is coming from. And if you don't talk about it, then there's absolutely going to be conflict. There's going to be resentment and potentially it's just going to continue to compile. So I think the important thing is that, you know yourself, you know your own patterns in relationship to money. And then you also get to know your partner or partner's patterns in relationship to money and that you have open conversations to understand that without it being a loaded topic that's filled with criticism, it's really about understanding, collaborating and being on the same page so that you can work together as a unit. [00:14:31][98.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:14:32] You've touched on quite a few examples already, things like feeling embarrassed but just conscious that they might earn more money and that that's a real sore point or something that's on their mind. Do you have any other examples of how this practically plays out? Do you see trends that consistent themes that you say come up time and time again? [00:14:51][19.2]

Sarah Asheton: [00:14:52] It starts to get really complex, like IPSI, for example. This is something that the CIS men partner is sensitive about. And let's just throw in a personality disorder and and and a tendency to engage in abusive behavior. They might actually then be a tendency to punish or to lash out in response to this feeling of inadequacy. It might be. They feel like they need to overcompensate in some way or that the woman needs to kind of minimize or not share financial successes, it might mean that the partner starts to say, well, you earn more, so you should pay for this. You should you should pay for us to do this or that to manipulate or put pressure on them to pay for things that are depending on the viewpoint of the partner. And if they don't respect that and I don't respect the boundary and the the energy that that person is put into earning this money, then it can be a source of manipulation. It can start to tip into a dynamic of abuse. And that's unfortunately something that that absolutely is very present. I think just more commonly, I suppose it would just be difficulties navigating boundaries. So what do I do if somebody asks me for money? Is it OK? How much money should I be giving someone? If I let's just say they've offered to do like a task for you. Is it polite to offer them money for that or is it just a generous things that they do? So there's all these questions around what's socially appropriate, what's appropriate in relationships. I don't know if you've heard of love languages before that. So some people want to express love through buying gifts or giving money, and that's really important to them. And they love doing that. And some people who like receiving that and there's nothing wrong with that. But in balance of everything else, there has to be really clear ideas around is there an exchange of equality in terms of all the energies within the relationship? And are they really clear expectations around what this means and if there's any obligations in terms of paying it back? Is everyone clear and on the same page about those expectations? And that gets really muddy when people have completely different relationships with money or if they don't respect and appreciate the other person. [00:17:01][128.8]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:17:02] What are some of the red flags and danger signs that you would want young people to look out for? And I think this question can extend to behavioral issues, sexual issues that you would want younger people to really look out for and take note of. [00:17:16][14.6]

Sarah Asheton: [00:17:17] Well, I think one thing to keep in mind is that some of the most toxic behaviors that can start sort of snowballing on the individual level with money is when you use buying things or spending as a form of self soothing. So there's lots of things that people do to self soothe that can be like eating, drinking, sex, walking, mindfulness. The list goes on and some of those things result in kind of long term positive impacts. And some of those things result in long term. Not so great impact. Right? If someone is using money and buying things in order to feel better about themselves or to soothe themselves when things happen. So they go on like impulse spend online or something like that when they've had a bad day. That's a red flag. Right. Because that can easily kind of continue to escalate and really cause not only can cause financial difficulties, it also indicates that maybe this person hasn't developed some other kind of healthy coping strategies for managing stuff, and that will have further implications for the relationship and for that person's mental health in general. And obviously, there are other things like risk taking behavior or gambling that can come up in relation to money. So if someone is engaging in any sort of risky financial decisions, I mean, obviously there's a kind of a spectrum of that and that someone can be very educated when they do that and they can do that kind of sensibly. And that can be different to, say, someone who's going to the casino every Saturday night. So really, it's all about context and it's about why is this person doing what they're doing? But if they're doing it as a form of emotional, soothing, they're engaged in this kind of gambling cycle, then that's definitely a red flag. The red flag is secrecy. So is this person being transparent about what they earn? Are they trying to do things that inflate the perception of how much they earn? So boring the friends car for your date or taking you to a really fancy restaurant when they really kind of feel that all of these things are sort of suggesting that they think that money is important for their self-worth and money is important to impress you. And so that's giving you an indication about their relationship with money. Right? So if it doesn't go well, then they might start feeling really bad about themselves. If you are earning more than them than they might, that might really be a source of contention in the relationship. And also it's going to mean that that's how they kind of prioritize their life and how to think about that and have to think about your values and the things that you think are important and that make you the person you want to be. Is that consistent with somebody who thinks that the most important thing about themselves is how much money they make and the appearance that that gives to the world around them? So all of these things are just worth thinking about. And of course, they'd be like really kind of red flags. Like someone presses you into spending money. If someone tries to manipulate you into making a financial decision or into giving them money or spending the money, if someone takes your details, that means that you can't log into your financial account. So they try and get them. If they stop you from doing the things that allow you to have money, like going to work or engage in any sort of behavior that involves taking power over the finances, that you and all of those would be red flag behaviors. [00:20:26][189.0]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:20:27] You listening to met pay love? My name is Zoe and I'm here with my sister Carmel. And we are discussing all things, money and relationships. We're going to take a quick break right now as we hear from our sponsors. And then when we come back, we'll hear more from Sarah from Ship Psychology. [00:20:38][11.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:21:15] Sometimes you might see a couple of red flags, but you don't you're kind of blinded to it or you think it's not really that bad, I can deal with that. You know, dating can be quite difficult as it is. You've met someone who you really click with and then you might find something like they have a significant amount of debt behind them, but otherwise you think they're a great person for you. What advice do you have to someone who's in that position? When is the time to walk away or what? What are you meant to do? [00:21:44][28.5]

Sarah Asheton: [00:21:44] I think the most important thing is to understand why why this is going on, what's behind it. There's a really big difference between someone who has a lot of debt because they have a fixed it versus somebody who has a lot of debt because they've got a spending habit and they've got money on a credit card is really big difference. So what's the behaviors that are connected to it? What are the patterns and how does this relate to their mental health? How does this relate to their respect to other people and the boundaries in their relationship? And what would be the long term impact of someone behaving in this way? And I think that for a lot of women that I've spoken to that not have the habit of taking on subjects or thinking that they can help the person that they're with. So he's so great and all these other ways and show he has a spending habit and it's a bit out of control. But he really wants to change and he really wants to do better. Now, of course, I'm in the business of people changing. I'm in the business of people helping themselves. But I also know how hard it is to change. And it's hard and it involves a lot of commitment. And it does not happen when it's just the person in the relationship that you're with who wants you to change. It's not enough. And it also sets up a dynamic in a relationship which is toxic if you're in a relationship with someone. And the only reason you're with them is because you think it'll be OK when they change, then you should not be with them, because that sets up resentment and it sets up this constant feeling of unease and a dynamic of of the other person's perspective then now under pressure to change themselves in order to keep the relationship. That's not a condition under which they can change. Now, that's not to say that, of course, we want to keep evolving as people and like keep working on ourselves. And, of course, there's work involved in relationships and developing all that. But if it's a fundamental thing, like a really significant problem, such as gambling or abusive behavior or spending habits that that are involved in self soothing, that indicated the more significant mental health problem, then we really have to think about what do I want for relationships and and not just now, but in the future? And what does their behavior tell me about their ability to be a good partner for me? [00:23:53][128.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:23:54] So what can our listeners do? I think there's probably two categories. There's the person that's in that situation. It's them. They're experiencing this. And then I also want to ask about what can you do if your friend or family or you feel passionate about this issue? How can you support as a third person that's outside the direct situation? [00:24:15][21.0]

Sarah Asheton: [00:24:16] So I think that seeking financial advice is pretty important, but that's not my kind of area of specialty. But I really kind of getting some practical advice is just very important and it is empowering. So I think that that's first and foremost something that would be really useful for anyone, let alone if someone is in an abusive situation or a situation which is not healthy for them. But look, it's really difficult when you're standing outside and you're watching somebody perhaps be abused in some way or you think that their partner's using them or you're concerned about their spending habits, it's really hard to do that in a way which is not going to offside because all of these things we can be in denial about, then we can be subconscious for us then maybe not something that we're aware of, although I think that public conversations like this podcast are incredibly useful in that context, because people who are listening to this may not be people who are even thinking about going to therapy. Right. But they might use some of these ideas and they might go, oh, yeah, that's part of my relationship or yeah, I've done that. And that might signal them to kind of think more about it and understand more about it and then maybe sort of seek help that a lot of barriers to people seeking out help and support because there is still, unfortunately, stigma attached to psychological care and support. But honestly, we have people from all walks of life, people who are functioning, successful, people who just want to understand more about themselves and they maybe just want a better life. You don't need to be, quote unquote unwell. You don't need to be kind of suffering to benefit from psychology. Everyone can benefit from psychology and understanding what's going on, on a psychological level when it comes to money is just so important because that's where it all stems from. Any kind of problematic behavior is in your mind. And it doesn't matter if you kind of know how to budget or you have you get financial advice if you're not. Healing the relationship that you have with money, if you're not understanding how to talk about it in your relationship and engaging in really kind of open discussions with your partner, then these problems are going to arise. And all of those problems relate to your own psychology and the functioning of your relationship. And we don't learn about this anywhere. Right. Where do we learn about this network? [00:26:34][138.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:26:35] And so for someone who might be in a relationship where they see their partner as being untruthful about their money, other than reaching out and getting support while they're in that process, what are some of the practical steps that they can take to either approach their partner or protect themselves mentally and securely and financially in that sort of relationship? [00:26:54][19.2]

Sarah Asheton: [00:26:55] So if we come from the perspective in these conversations that we have with loved ones, where we give people the benefit of the doubt, there's things that I don't know, these things that I don't understand about you, because, yes, there are people who engage in kind of deliberate and malicious behavior, but they're a small percentage. Most people might be doing things because they're just trying to protect themselves at the end of the day and they're just trying to protect their own ego. So if we kind of approach them with connection, we approach them with the benefit of the doubt and then we ask them what's going on and to understand and to explore what might be happening for them. What are they afraid of? What's what's the function of this behavior? What does it do for them? Why did they feel like they couldn't talk about it? It might be factors in the relationship that mean that they don't feel like they can will be open about these things. But at the end of the day, if they have been deceitful about money, that is a betrayal of trust within the relationship and it should be treated as such. And that's really important that it's taken seriously from your perspective and that there's an understanding that this behavior is not OK, that it's not part of building a healthy relationship. It's also really important that you reflect on it, that you understand your own boundaries when it relates to money and relates to the topic, and that you make those boundaries and your needs, in this context, clear to your partner in the process of this communication so that you're listening. But you're also making your boundaries really clear. And sometimes it can be really helpful if these types of conversations are difficult for you to be supported by a relationship therapist. [00:28:32][97.1]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:28:33] So anything you wish, anyone heading into a serious relationship considered before the relationship started or got more serious? [00:28:41][7.5]

Sarah Asheton: [00:28:41] I think that the most important thing to consider is that there is no one size fits all when it comes to finances and relationships, and you need to do what's right for you. So there are lots of different options in terms of arranging your finances in a relationship, and it doesn't have to be connected with how much you care about someone. So if you want to keep your savings to itself or you want to be financially independent, then that doesn't mean that you don't love the other person or that you're not expressing love to them. There are lots of different ways of exchanging energy and loving relationships, and money can be one of that, but it doesn't have to be. So it's really important that you just do what is right for you and that you understand what your relationship is and what your priorities are with money. Spend some time thinking about it and spend some time talking to other people about it and get some ideas. Because as I was saying, to start off with, it's a taboo topic and people often feel uncomfortable. So they're not really aware of like all these different options when it comes to prioritizing and thinking about where you put your money and how you sort of strategies are available and on what priority placed on savings. So I think it's really important that we olmstead's with knowledge and that we remember that we have choices. [00:29:59][77.6]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:30:00] Thanks so much, Sara. I've really enjoyed this conversation. And I think one of the main things that stands out for me is when you were talking about how is this situation now, you know, so many things in life are unpredictable and you really need to look at the now and look within yourself. [00:30:17][17.3]

Sarah Asheton: [00:30:18] Absolutely. And oftentimes, there's so much information available to you about another person when it comes to relationships. And we want so much to have connections. That's how we're wired. That's such a priority for most people. And it's something that I speak to my clients about all the time. And what we spend most of the time on in therapy is the things that lead them to deny what they need and then deny that what they want. So there's all sorts of patterns and experiences in our childhood that mean that we end up doing this. And so we end up overlooking or prioritizing what we need because we want the connection so much. And I think it's really important to know that it's possible to have a loving and respectful relationships and that if you don't seek that out and if you don't think that you deserve it, then you're not going to get it, that you really need to prioritize and. Think carefully about what you want and think carefully about what is a loving relationship look like to me and what is a loving relationship would like to me in relation to money, what would that look like for me? How would how would I feel about it and then go and get that and don't settle for any less. [00:31:28][69.7]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:31:29] What an amazing interview. I honestly feel like the last thing in The Breakfast Club walking away from that was like my fist in the air. Yes. Support me. [00:31:36][7.2]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:31:38] Yeah. And Zoey, actually, because we do these with a video going as well, but we just take away the audio and so did physically fist pumping in the interview. At the end there, because what Sarah saying is so powerful and so important and I'm so happy that we were able to get her on the show. [00:31:53][15.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:31:53] I've been to some rock concerts and I've never been that pumped up in my life. [00:31:56][2.9]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:31:57] And like the thing is, we're both in pretty happy relationship. So you weren't pumped up because you're like, I need to break up with Ali. [00:32:03][5.9]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:32:04] You will. Is that fair? Yeah. No, I wasn't. I'm not planning to break up with it. I was just pumped up because I was like, yes, speak the truth. Speaking what I think. [00:32:12][8.7]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:32:13] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. One of the key things that I really liked hearing from her was how in relationships we bring it's exchange of different forms of energy. And one of them might be money, but it doesn't have to be money. It might be it's your love languages that most people might know about. But I know with it he is a real actions person, whereas I'm a real words person and that's just an exchange of our energies. [00:32:38][25.4]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:32:39] So one of my learnings was definitely the fact that you shouldn't make your choices based on how you see the other person's going to react. You should do it for you. And your choices don't reflect how much you love the other person. [00:32:51][11.6]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:32:51] Yeah, like keeping your finances separate. Is that what you mean? Yeah. [00:32:55][3.7]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:32:56] So if you choose to keep your finances separate and your partner wants to join them, it's not a reflection on your partner that you don't want to join finances. It's personal choice. [00:33:06][10.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:33:07] Yeah, it's not. What you're saying is it's not a reflection that you don't love them. It's just you're allowed to make your own decisions that make you feel comfortable. And it doesn't mean that you don't love them because you can exchange changes in different ways. [00:33:18][11.1]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:33:18] Exactly. And money is such a personal topic and an intimate topic that you can keep that to yourself to an extent. And you shouldn't be hiding things from your partner and doing the dodgy on the down low. But you do have the right to look after your finances, how you want to look after them. [00:33:33][14.8]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:33:33] Yeah, and I like how Sarah said, be in tune with your emotions and what you feel and do what's right for you and don't settle for any less. I love that line. It's so true. It's as sappy office interview. I would say it's all shades of gray. [00:33:47][13.2]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:33:47] We'd love to hear from you if you want to reach out to us with any story that you have or anything that happened to you after hearing this. And I know that Sarah would love to hear that as well. [00:33:56][8.3]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:33:56] And so you can reach us on meet pay love on Instagram, or you can email us at either carmel@equity.com or zoe@equitymates.com. [00:34:01][5.3]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:34:06] We'd love to hear from you. So if this conversation has triggered anything for you on a personal level, there's a few places you can reach out to reach out to Lifeline on 13, 11, 14 to [00:34:16][10.5]

Carmel Moorhead: [00:34:17] Q life, which is LGBTQ I specific on one 800 one eight four five to seven or beyond blue on one 300, two, two, four, six, three. And all of these numbers will be in the show notes below. [00:34:29][12.7]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:34:30] Next episode, we'll be talking to the happy family lawyer Clarissa Raywood about prenups and financial agreements. Here's a little grab from her for next week. [00:34:39][8.8]

Clarissa Raywood: [00:34:39] What I think is important, and particularly for young people starting relationships, and I guess this is the now 40 something-year-old woman reflecting on her own life and maybe learning along the way. Having conversations about money is a really difficult thing to do, but a really important thing to do. And if you are in a situation where you might have some wealth, where a financial agreement can be really helpful, is it gives you a framework to talk about what would happen if our relationship ended with the things that I already have, with the things that you already have. How do we want to manage our money when we're together? How do we see that we're going to acquire assets? What might happen if one of us was to take time away from work to raise children? And these are really important conversations to have in any relationship. [00:35:23][44.2]

Zoe Moorhead: [00:35:24] We'll see you next week for another show of Meet Pay Love. [00:35:24][0.0]

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