Future Expert Investor: Usman Khawaja – Lessons Learned From Investing Right Before COVID-19

Bryce: [00:01:28] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast where we help you learn to invest in 45 minutes or less. We break down the world of investing from beginning to dividend so that you can hopefully make some returns. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How's it going, bro? [00:01:43][14.8]

Alec: [00:01:43] I'm very good. Bryce very excited for this episode. And we've got a guest who we all know and we've all watched for a number of years and we're going to be exploring a different side to him today. I saw that I didn't know much about and I'm very interested to unpack. [00:01:57][14.1]

Bryce: [00:01:58] Absolutely. This is a continuation of our expert investor series. I would probably frame this more as a future expert investor because for reasons that we dig into a bit later. But we're very, very honoured to welcome Australian cricketer Usman Khawaja to the show. Welcome, Usman. [00:02:16][17.5]

Usman: [00:02:16] Thanks for having me, boys. And I'm definitely not an expert, but I'm just I'm glad that Bryce said he's very excited for this show because of every single show. Actually, listen to he said he's very excited. So he gave me anything less than very excited. I was about to blow up. [00:02:30][13.6]

Speaker 3: [00:02:30] Yeah, I got the interview done. Yeah, well, that's not that I think [00:02:37][6.6]

Alec: [00:02:37] it's right that it's a future expert investor. You sign you don't expect now, but I reckon you're going to have some good insights and track your journey as we track hours and you'll be an expert soon enough. [00:02:47][9.6]

Usman: [00:02:48] It is Ren. I keep saying your name there is Alec is throwing me off. [00:02:51][3.6]

Speaker 3: [00:02:51] But look, I actually love actually love. Listen, you guys, I'm very excited to be on the show, so thanks for having me. [00:02:58][6.7]

Bryce: [00:02:59] No worries. So I guess the reason we reached out is we we came to understand that you were pretty interested in the markets, have been listening to the show a bit and also at the start of your investing journey. And so we love trying to understand what it's like for people to go through that beginner phase, particularly, as you mentioned, that you started right just before covid hit. So very interested to see sort of your thoughts around that sort of process. But before we do, I'll throw across to Ren to obviously kick off with our game. [00:03:28][29.3]

Alec: [00:03:29] Well, for people who aren't familiar with those bean kilojoule, we might we might give a brief bio million. Those people already know Ousman is an Australian cricket currently represents Australia and Queensland. He's played 44 Test matches for Australia and forty one day internationals. Most people from Australia will know it. And we're not going to talk about cricket at all or we might touch on it. Yeah, we're excited to unpack a different side today. We'd like to start with a bit of a game, overrated or underrated, where we throw out some different themes and we get your thoughts on them. So are you up for playing Losman? [00:04:04][35.6]

Usman: [00:04:05] Absolutely. It's just all right. [00:04:06][1.3]

Alec: [00:04:06] We'll start where we always start, overrated or underrated. The ASX 200 index. [00:04:11][4.7]

Usman: [00:04:12] Right. I'm going to answer this. As you said, I'm going to answer this as mom and pop investor. Right, because I'm not I'm not a day trader and I'm not out there to make the quick. So that's how I'm going to answer this. And when I look at it in my extensive six month history on the equity markets, I see from what I've seen long term, and that's how I invest, I think it's underrated. I've come from a corporate background, just like 98 per cent of Australians do. And when I look at the what the equity markets have done even over the last six months and I came a really poor time, I was a good lesson learnt, but I did. I still think there's a lot to investing in the equity markets and a lot of upside when you compared to the other assets in Australia. And look. In short term, I'm still sceptical because I might not know the equity markets, you know as well as a lot of people in terms of experience, but I love economics and I've loved economics as a kid and even through high school. And I've always been in touch with Australian economics and global economics. And it was really weird for me to see the share market rally that we saw after Covid hit. And I was you know, I'm very lucky that my father in law, John Big John, as I call them, is a financial planner and has been involved in the markets for a long time. So I'm always talking to him. He's the one who I sort of, you know, gave me the encouragement to get into it. You know, I was really hesitant. But when I look at the market's short term, I'm really cautious. I'm thinking, yes, there might be a little bit overrated or overvalued. You guys say when I look at what's happening with unemployment, what's happening around Australia, Victoria, not only that, but around what's happening around us makes me very uncertain short term. But I'm not in it for the short term. I mean for the long term. So long term, I'm thinking it's underrated. [00:06:02][109.7]

Bryce: [00:06:03] Nice, sad to hear that it wasn't Equity Mates that sort of pushed you over. [00:06:06][3.4]

Speaker 3: [00:06:07] But do you think the first I when I got into it, I'm very glad that [00:06:13][5.7]

Usman: [00:06:13] Glenn got you and these guys actually saw Instagram page. I'm like, who are these clients? [00:06:16][2.9]

Speaker 3: [00:06:16] Because I thought you were just on Instagram. [00:06:19][2.3]

Usman: [00:06:19] And then I'm like, oh, they do podcasting. And I have listened to them. [00:06:21][2.4]

Speaker 3: [00:06:22] And also that I know. [00:06:23][1.2]

Bryce: [00:06:24] So a concept that is pretty popular for people at the start of their investing journey is micro investing. So I'd like to get your thoughts overrated or underrated micro investing. [00:06:36][12.1]

Usman: [00:06:37] When you say micro investing, he's talking about like dollar cost averaging. Is that what you mean? Or do you mean if you [00:06:42][5.3]

Bryce: [00:06:42] look at some of the apps that are available out there at the moment, you've got Re's or spaceship where where you can literally take sense of it, invest your spare change, essentially. [00:06:55][12.9]

Usman: [00:06:56] To be honest, I'm not really into that. I think the Brog is that you have in Australia pretty good. I mean, you can put sense and whatnot into it. But, you know, I'm not a big trader. I'm not out there trading one hundred thousand dollars or whatever per trade. But I think micro investing is very personal. I mean, if you want to trade really small, I think it's very good. And if you don't, you probably just don't want to do it. You probably just happy with the normal brokers that you have in every day. So I probably don't have enough information on micro investing, but I'm going to say underactive because I think different strokes for different folks. [00:07:29][32.8]

Alec: [00:07:31] So we we asked you about the ASX 200. If we go over to the states, the Nasdaq 100 has had an unbelievable run led by some very big names. So overrated or underrated, the Nasdaq 100 index. [00:07:44][13.4]

Usman: [00:07:45] I'm going to say it's almost the same answer ASX. I think in the long term, the Nasdaq and I love the Nasdaq. I love US stocks. I love tech. I love tech stocks that they have over there. I think long term underrated because us if you look at the history and history I know is not just because they have in the past, I mean, having the future, but they've broken the ceiling over and over and over again where the ASX, you know, we were sixty eight hundred whatever, around two thousand and eight before the financial crisis whenever that happened around there. And then we got back up to seven thousand and we struggled to break that. But the US markets just keep breaking it over and over and over again. [00:08:22][37.4]

Alec: [00:08:23] So crazy. Yeah. [00:08:24][1.1]

Usman: [00:08:25] And when I look at the stocks, obviously we talk about the fang him stocks, the tech stocks. I can't see tech getting any smaller. And if Covid has shown us anything is only getting bigger. We've got some pretty good companies there. When I look at those tech stocks and when you look at, you know, artificial intelligence, everything else science wise moving forward, I can only see them getting bigger at the moment. I'm still cautious seeing how stocks like Tesla [00:08:48][23.2]

Speaker 3: [00:08:48] have been going up after [00:08:50][1.6]

Usman: [00:08:50] Covid and US has three point three million people with the virus that we tested positive for the virus and, you know, almost 150000 deaths from it. You know, Texas has been shut down for a while of a family over in Texas and friends that have just said like nothing's happening over there right now. So I actually don't really understand what's going on from an economic point of view. But if this is, Toby, anything that, you know, the market's not always rational. And in the short term, I'm still very, very cautious as to whether there's going to be another retrenchment or drop in the market. And us and as we all know, whatever happens to us pretty much happened in Australia. So short term, I'm going to say, yes, maybe overvalued. I read it, but long term, I still think it's an excellent opportunity to invest in us, [00:09:37][46.9]

Bryce: [00:09:38] something that we obviously have no idea about what is going to happen in the future. I read an interesting stat today, though, Hamish Douglass, who is the fund manager and co-founder of Magellan. He brought out the stat that in Australia, nine billion dollars has been the net buying position of retail investors in Australia. Since the drop in March, so retail investors, you and I and Ren have just been going gung ho. However, the institutional investors are net 11 billion dollars on the sell side. So not only is there a divergence between markets and economy, there seems to be a divergence between institutional investors and retail prices. [00:10:17][39.2]

Speaker 3: [00:10:19] Great. Because, you know, no one really knows [00:10:22][3.7]

Usman: [00:10:23] what's happening in the markets, but the obviously institutions have dealt with it for a long time and they know what they're doing is always a bit of why they buy [00:10:30][7.2]

Speaker 3: [00:10:33] all that. [00:10:33][0.5]

Alec: [00:10:33] All that tells me is that the institutions all missed out on the massive rally they did. [00:10:38][4.5]

Usman: [00:10:38] And honestly, I was not expecting the reality to be [00:10:41][2.5]

Speaker 3: [00:10:41] what it was. I don't think any of you guys and I could [00:10:44][3.8]

Usman: [00:10:45] tell you guys were just waiting for the market to dip back down. And so was all we did. [00:10:49][4.5]

Speaker 3: [00:10:49] A whole podcast on a [00:10:50][0.9]

Alec: [00:10:51] 50 percent retracement will [00:10:52][1.3]

Speaker 3: [00:10:53] probably going to drop again. We were wrong. I'm like, I'm [00:10:56][2.5]

Usman: [00:10:56] happy because I did invest when it was down, but I was like at the same time and like, oh, I don't I don't get what's going on here. So there's a good lesson. Again, I don't know. No one noticed [00:11:04][8.1]

Alec: [00:11:05] we were investing during the GFC. So for us, this was the first massive crash and recovery and learn a lot. We didn't get it. All right. But we learnt a lot, [00:11:13][8.3]

Bryce: [00:11:14] a couple more to go. So you mentioned that you started your investing journey in property, so keen to hear thoughts, overrated or underrated Australian residential property, [00:11:23][9.2]

Usman: [00:11:24] extremely, extremely overrated. Obviously, my investing journey in shares has been fairly new, but I've been investing in property since I was 21. One. Yeah, twenty one. Twenty two. I bought my first property when I was living in Sydney and for May. Well look at the property market. OK, Sydney, I think Sydney is still a great buy, but the issue is Sydney is so expensive, median house price is about one million dollars. And that tough work, that's tough work for anyone, the majority of people. That's pretty tough work and that's a big capital. You have to you have to dish out 20 percent most times to just get into that. And I still think Sydney is a great place to buy if you can buy. When I look at Melbourne, yeah, maybe. But when I look at the other places like Brisbane, property market has been flat for a long time. I mean, suburbs go up 10 percent for about two or three years and then just stop again. And when I look at obviously what happened in Western Australia with the mining boom and the subsequent drop from there, it has come up a little bit and South Australia is all right. But when I'm looking at the camera driving camera, I seen that over. At the end of the day, what really frustrates me about property markets is that you have to deal with so and you guys hate fees, right? Stamp duty and stamp duty kills me. You pay five percent on a property straight up when you buy, like Acers and then not. Do you have to pay conveyancing fees? You know, and if you're selling the property after you then pay an agent, if you're renting the property, you have to sell and you have to give commission to an agent again. Then there's the big issue about maintenance. Something goes wrong. You're responsible for that. Yeah, you can. And I can negatively gear and all that. But the last and biggest one for me, I guess, is the liquidity. Like, you have no liquidity whatsoever when you put such or almost putting all your eggs in a basket. If for most people, if you're buying property because you probably have one, two or three properties, you know, if you're if you're going really well. And for me, it's just frustrating because I just think there's so many more upsides to the equity market than there is the property market. And the growth is not too dissimilar. I mean, you can depending on your risk and how much risk you want to take, it can depend on that. But for me, the property market is very I've read and I've been in it for the last ten years and it's been frustrating me for a long time. [00:13:39][134.9]

Bryce: [00:13:39] Show me a house that's gone up 700 percent since March 2003, like Afterpay housing. [00:13:43][4.0]

Speaker 3: [00:13:46] I'm trying to not go there, I'm sure, for every Afterpay. [00:13:50][4.1]

Usman: [00:13:51] So there is also another story. [00:13:52][1.1]

Speaker 3: [00:13:52] Everyone's lost it every day. Yeah, that is a serious outlier. I think a lot [00:13:58][5.6]

Usman: [00:13:58] of people could say it's a some serious outlaw's the Sydney market. [00:14:01][3.0]

Alec: [00:14:02] So last one in this overrated, underrated game, an asset class that gets a lot of attention and a lot of hype and a lot of controversy. Is Bitcoin so overrated or underrated? [00:14:13][10.8]

Usman: [00:14:13] Bitcoin, I'm going to say underrated. Is it? You ready joined [00:14:17][3.6]

Speaker 3: [00:14:17] bitcoin? Do you buy it? I own a little bit. I think Bryce does as well. I'm of [00:14:23][5.5]

Usman: [00:14:23] the same. I don't own any bitcoin, but I don't think there's any harm in knowing a little bit of Bitcoin because I feel like the upside is so high. So even if you like, buy like a grand or two grand worth of five hundred dollars worth, you know, anything, there is a lot it could actually blow up into something massive because obviously supply and demand, there's only a certain amount of supply out there. The way it's been going, no one really knows what it is. So I wouldn't tell anyone to go out a 20 grand of Bitcoin or fifty grand a Bitcoin, but I think it's worth just being in it for the sake of. The upside is so massive, so, yeah, I'm going to say underwrite it just for that reason. We don't know what's going to be my big pile of crap, but hey, you know, it's going to be in it to win it by choice. [00:15:08][44.9]

Alec: [00:15:10] That's it. That's it. Well, ten years ago, it was a dollar and now it's nine thousand US dollars. So and people are talking about it being in a bear market. So I don't understand it. I don't know if there's anything to it, but you'd be happy if you held it for 10 [00:15:23][13.6]

Speaker 3: [00:15:24] years to entirely agree. [00:15:26][2.6]

Alec: [00:15:27] So it mean we like to start these interviews with the story of people's first investment. And obviously you were saying you just started investing before covid. So it's probably very fresh in your mind. Can you tell us the story of what led you to decide to invest at the start of this year and what you invested in? And were there any lessons that came out of it? [00:15:47][20.4]

Usman: [00:15:47] So you want to know about my first investment in my life or first investment on the equity market? [00:15:51][3.7]

Bryce: [00:15:52] Let's do life and then you jump [00:15:53][1.3]

Speaker 3: [00:15:53] into this building for life. So let's go to life and then we can see lots of different scenarios. [00:15:59][5.6]

Usman: [00:16:00] I mean, my parents immigrated here in 1990 and we were in Sydney and the crappy apartment in City Park, which wasn't a really nice area. But I went to Paddington Public High School. And do you remember? I don't know if you guys did it used to get like that little Commonwealth Bank through chequebook and you, like, put money into [00:16:17][17.1]

Speaker 3: [00:16:18] the EU for money and get it in. And I and I used to [00:16:21][3.8]

Usman: [00:16:22] do that all the time. And I was thinking about the other day I that's my first investment because I was like saving up. My dad was putting in I was giving it in. And after year three, we moved out west. So I left the school and the new school I went to didn't really do it. So I stopped investing then. And this was bad, too. I think I've probably accumulated about two hundred dollars at a time and I totally forgot about it. And funnily enough, when I started [00:16:43][21.8]

Speaker 3: [00:16:44] playing, [00:16:44][0.0]

Usman: [00:16:45] it's a bit embarrassing when I started playing for New South Wales or getting close to it on a night to play for Australia, I think I was Googling myself, as you do as a 19 year old, [00:16:52][7.3]

Speaker 3: [00:16:56] Seagate's out there and I came up with this, like, [00:16:59][2.7]

Usman: [00:16:59] page of like Coloured Bank was like, you know, something along the lines of money, not like, you know, just sitting there undisclosed, you know, funds that are just sitting there. Had my name on it, had my name. Well, what the hell's going on here? Not many people. Naipaul's Winterich Khwaja in the world, let alone in Australia. So I had to look at it. I'm like, oh, crap. That's the same money that I've put in when I was younger. They kept it in. They had nowhere else because I left. They didn't have any phone numbers, any address. That was the same money I [00:17:27][28.0]

Speaker 3: [00:17:27] had ten years ago for that time in the [00:17:32][4.5]

Usman: [00:17:32] 90s. Interest rates are pretty good too. So it was a savings account at that time. Interest rates were real good and it ended up being about seven per Dollars. I got out of it, so I was like, hey, that's pretty cool. [00:17:41][9.1]

Speaker 3: [00:17:41] I got two hundred dollars. So that was my first lesson. [00:17:43][2.2]

Usman: [00:17:44] I don't think I got any of it because my dad, when a client did not put in his back [00:17:47][2.9]

Speaker 3: [00:17:47] pocket, but just turned up. It's fair enough. [00:17:50][2.6]

Alec: [00:17:50] Let's try to set and forget investors. True. [00:17:52][1.9]

Speaker 3: [00:17:53] Don't forget. Yeah. [00:17:53][0.5]

Bryce: [00:17:53] How about the day interest rates for seven percent or nine percent or whatever they were back then. [00:17:58][4.6]

Usman: [00:17:58] Exactly. That's why I went up so much. You're not getting that day of it. [00:18:02][3.4]

Bryce: [00:18:02] So it was something else that obviously I had no idea about. And I'm not sure if many other people would. But you're actually a qualified commercial and instrument rated pilot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but [00:18:13][10.8]

Speaker 3: [00:18:14] I [00:18:14][0.0]

Usman: [00:18:14] lost my instrument rating, but I can get it back. Yeah, I was. Yeah. Have Yeah. To renew that every twelve months so I don't have that anymore but I can get it if I want. [00:18:21][6.2]

Bryce: [00:18:22] So was this the chosen sort of career path that you were heading down if cricket hadn't turned out to what it is today? [00:18:28][6.3]

Usman: [00:18:28] Yeah, definitely. I remember at university my first choice was flying. My second choice was economics. I don't even care about. My third choice was really and it was just pretty much them to. And for me it was more of a backup plan. I love cricket. All I wanted to do was play cricket. But I was also a realist and I knew that not many people have the opportunity or get to the point where they play cricket professionally. It's a very cutthroat environment, very cutthroat sport. I knew that the chances of it are still small, no matter how good you are at the game or how good you think you are the game. So for me, it was more of a backup plan. I always said if I didn't play professional cricket by, I was, you know, till I was twenty four, I was going to stop playing and go floor. And for me I think I graduated when I was twenty one and debuted four New South Wales and began crack it up pretty much a couple of weeks, three weeks after that. So it actually worked out really well. But yeah I was always one of those things. A backup plan. I love flying. So is an easy decision. No. [00:19:24][55.5]

Bryce: [00:19:24] If cricket weren't to be a thing right now, would you be a fund manager or a commercial pilot play? [00:19:31][6.4]

Speaker 3: [00:19:32] I'd be a [00:19:32][0.4]

Usman: [00:19:32] fund manager if that allowed me to stay at home. I've been travelling my entire life. I've lost ten years ago and I literally I think the last two years I I've probably spent maybe a month in my bed. I'm not even I'm not even exaggerating because I was away playing county cricket. And then it was when I played for Australia and then Australian Series and then World Cup and then Ashes and then. Two years go on like that, I mean, that's why I don't think I've been talking about doing lots of, like home stuff. I've been on Fox Sports on Sundays and talking about cricket and stuff on there. And I've been mentioning how much I've been doing around the house because I've been home for three years. So I think that's probably the hardest part about cricket, footy and sports in Australia this just weekend sports. And you stay in Australia and you're in that routine. But the hardest part about cricket is you're always travelling. So I think I take the fund manager job if it meant that I could stay at home because I haven't had a lot of time at home lately. [00:20:29][56.9]

Alec: [00:20:30] So it was when I started asking before about your first stock investments. So we might you might get that story out of you now. So, yeah, after investing in property for a number of years, you decided to take the plunge into the stock market. So can you talk us through maybe why you didn't invest in stocks earlier, like what your attitude was towards the stock market? And then what sort of help do you change? Obviously, Bryce and I was [00:20:55][24.9]

Speaker 3: [00:20:55] number one on that. [00:20:58][2.6]

Alec: [00:20:59] And then you tell us about your first investment in the share market. [00:21:01][2.8]

Usman: [00:21:02] The equity market just scared me everything. When we were coming into cricket, we had a lot of financial planners come in and everything was about property, property, property. And then when you talk about property so tangibly, you know, bricks and mortar, you can feel it, you can touch it almost. And everything about share market was kind of scary, you know, sort of putting your money into businesses and you didn't know what happened. You heard so many stories about fluctuations in the market and probably some Maoris got a little bit, too, because my dad invested in the Nasdaq around what you would have been around 19, late 1990s. And he did really well. And he made a few mistakes in terms of his sort of being a bit too speculative and something I'm very, very mindful of not doing ever. I'm old long term now because I've seen, you know, my dad had some really good times and lost a lot of money from that. And that put a sour taste in my mouth. And so I always stayed away from the markets because, you know, I look after my dad is a very smart man. And for him to make the mistakes he did always scared me to. In 2010, I wanted to invest into the equity market. I thought, I've got a property. I wouldn't mind investing in some shares. And I remember I went to a fund manager like a broker, like a fund manager. And I said, like, you know, I want to invest this, that. And we got to the final stages. And my dad was like, Yeah, I just don't like it. And I didn't invest. And I saw what happened in the markets after that. I missed that opportunity. And it was a really good learning curve from there because I saw the markets when they were down and what happened and I saw what I missed. And so back around 2017 18, I thought, I want to get back into the markets. You know, I've done a lot more research from now till then, a bit old. I understand myself emotionally because that's very important when you're investing and just the markets in general, I can sort of understand what they're about. So then I started talking to John, who luckily my wife, as I mentioned, a father in law who's been involved in this. And I just kept picking his brain, kept against brain. And I was obviously smart enough to know that the best time to invest is when the market drops. And historically, it always attracts at some stage it does and it always corrects itself. And so I just kept waiting from 2017, 18, 19, I was like I was just waiting. I was like [00:23:13][131.1]

Speaker 3: [00:23:13] at the back. It just kept going up. And it was curious, like, come on, man, I've got to a point where I thought, well, I'm a long term investor. [00:23:21][7.1]

Usman: [00:23:22] I've waited this long, you know, the market's just going to you know, they look like they're just going to keep going after a bit of time. And as a as I mentioned, emotional, a little bit of emotion. But I came in because I was like, well, they're going to keep going up a modest well, invest now. And it's to me the closest things that are similar to the property market sort of put into a set and forget sort of thing. You don't have to worry too much about him. Just set and forget. And I invested, I think, around probably three weeks before covid here. I think the market was around sixty eight hundred. I waited. I waited when I was 65. I just kept going. Sixty eight hundred. I invested and then went up a little bit. I thought how good is this. I'm back, I'm in this game, how good is it. And then it just went poof and dropped straight away. And I was invested in ETFs and it's the sell off that we saw in Covid like they got hurt pretty much like everything else that got hurt badly. And probably one of the biggest mistakes was, you know, I didn't invest all my money obviously into it, but I invested a fair bit of chunk of money into it. And now I lost a fabulous chunk. And it was a really good lesson on how I would go about things afterwards. And now I'm stringent dollar cost averaging no matter what's happening, because, you know, I think there's just a lot less risk when you invest that way. So that was my first investment. I invested into ETFs. I think it was about four different ETFs. I invested the ASX and three weeks into it got badly hurt. [00:24:44][82.6]

Bryce: [00:24:45] So you speak about emotion, the Aussie, and obviously I completely agree with you. And, you know, Ren and I speak about it a lot on the show. It's one of those things that takes ages as an investor to master your emotion and understand. How you react to markets and what sort of investing style works best for you as a person, and certainly both Ren and I have stories of taking losses early in the day and me particularly succumbing to emotion and selling out probably when I shouldn't have. I get the impression that when the market dropped, you stayed in. What was it about that particular crash or, you know, you haven't experienced that before. Why didn't you panic or talk us through that sort of emotional period? [00:25:25][40.5]

Usman: [00:25:26] Because I waited so long for the market to drop. I was fortunate that, you know, the worst thing could have been if I invested everything I had to invest and the market dropped, then you cooked. You've got nowhere to go. And luckily, I was forward enough to think that if the market did drop, I wasn't expecting it to. But if it did that, I would have some money to reinvest. And that's the hardest thing, honestly. The hardest thing is to invest when it's dropping. I think I was really fortunate. I invested a lot on the day where the market dropped around four thousand five hundred. I bought individual shares in things like Kogan and Sig when there was about four Dollars Sago's qualified to. It was just lucky that I got it at that day. I was expecting the market to drop a little bit more to so I didn't invest all my funds that day. Then when you look back in hindsight, you could've invested more. [00:26:13][46.7]

Speaker 3: [00:26:13] But I thought I was worried. You know, the way I [00:26:15][2.5]

Usman: [00:26:15] was going, I was like, well, it's a great time. It would be silly for me not to invest now because this is what I've been waiting for. And as hard as it is to invest now, I'm a long term investor. If the market drops back down to thirty five hundred, that's fine. I've got a forty five hundred and it was at seven thousand. So that's, that's a sale. Right. And you've got to try to get your emotions out of Ren think five, ten years ahead. And that's what I was seeing. I was like, OK, I can drop more. It's not going to affect me because I don't need this money that I'm investing right now immediately. I don't need this immediately. I think that's really important that you don't feel like you're investing money that you need right now. I feel like, you know, I've got a buffer. If you're lucky enough, you got savings. You can invest for the long term. And that's how I went back into the market. And I was quite lucky that all the losses I had from that time, as obviously the market's come back up, I've made up all those losses, but obviously it can drop back down. But that's where the emotion sort of comes into it. It's very easy to invest when everything is going fine. You're happy, but it's very hard when you're saying the market drop like it was. I stuck to my guns. I think that's the main thing. You stick to your plan, stick to your guns. Yeah, I think that that goes a long way. [00:27:20][64.8]

Alec: [00:27:21] So you've you've mentioned that a couple of aspects of your investing philosophy, I guess, in buying for the long term buying ETFs. You mentioned they're having a plan. Did you go into your first investments and your first few months of investing with asset investing philosophy, an asset investing plan that you want to stick to? [00:27:39][18.6]

Usman: [00:27:40] The philosophy for me is I'm not a big risk taker when it comes to money. I was never going to be a risk taker. I'm not a guy who's going to invest ten grand trying to make a million dollars out of it. Right. If I get ten percent for the rest of my life, I'll be very happy and anything above that. As a bonus, I'm very, very conscious of not being greedy. I'm not a trader. I'm not a day trader. My income is not derived from the property market. My income is derived of cricket. So that's where I get my income. And the property market is an investment tool for me. So I use it as an investment tool. And for me it's sort of managing that risk. That's why I like ETFs to an extent, especially ETFs globally, ETFs. I mean, I heard your podcast with them. It was Lars Larson, Kreuger. I got it. And I said, yeah, and I really liked listening to him because it was a really good purpose. And it really related with me about, you know, setting, forgetting and understanding that a lot of people can't beat the market. It's so hard for people to beat them. Even the best guys who have all the data, all the things in front of them to beat the markets is really hard, which is why it really frustrates me when a lot of the experts on your show and I really love listening to all your experts, but when you talk about ETFs, when a lot of them say ETFs are overrated, yeah, they might be overrated for them because [00:28:58][78.0]

Speaker 3: [00:28:59] they they [00:28:59][0.7]

Usman: [00:29:00] can look at balance sheets. They got their P e ratios and all this other jazz. But for a [00:29:04][4.5]

Speaker 3: [00:29:04] girl like me, because it makes them look bad. Well, yeah, I guess it's like it's [00:29:10][5.6]

Usman: [00:29:10] like the great and the if you do it right, like if I guess in a way doing it right when I say do it right, do it your way, do it what's right for you. I train every day just about and I can't be on the markets all the time even though yeah. When I started first thing I do is get my phone, look at my because I do but I can't be doing it all the time and I understand that and I understand my limits. I play with a few individual stocks obviously, but my Mango's ETFs, because for me that makes more sense to my profile in terms of my risk aversion and may not understand in the markets as the expert investor. So I get really frustrated when I say that because I think it's a great for someone like me who's not going to go in there and look at balance sheets and do all this. So that's that's my sort of philosophy on you mentioned. [00:29:56][45.9]

Bryce: [00:29:57] You know that when you came into cricket, they bring in the financial advisers and they're all sort of talking property, property to a number of the boys in the change rooms, would be interested to know is is investing in stocks and chat about the markets something of interest to the boys in the change rooms? Or are you kind of an outlier when it comes to this sort of thinking? [00:30:16][19.0]

Usman: [00:30:17] Yeah, not much. Yeah, there's not much going on. It's all property. I think it's just. Yeah, it's because it's just everything in Australia is of property, property, property and just gets drilled down everyone's throat. I refuse to look at equity markets for 10 years because of it and I look back down like I wish I should invest in an ETF when I was 21 years old and just kept putting it into it. I mean, I think when you look at it that way, I see the benefits and I think people are afraid of the private market. That's just how it is. And cricket is afraid of it. A lot of sportsmen don't get it. I think it might be a little bit more complex when you first start, because this feels like there's a lot more as you go to school. You know, the jargon, the words, you know the technical word that throw you off a little bit and scare you a little bit. And everyone has pretty much everyone has to rent a place or buy a house, so you have to do it. It's almost a necessity to do it. So you learn you learn whether you like it or not, whether property equity markets, you don't really have to. So I think it's probably the difference. [00:31:09][52.9]

Alec: [00:31:10] Yeah, well, we had Ed Cowan on the show a little while ago, so maybe you and him can lead the charge and get on getting it. You're trying to tell them to get some experts in as well. [00:31:21][11.1]

Usman: [00:31:22] Listen, listen to that focus. I Texas straight off of that. And he's always been involved in this place. A very smart man I've known for a long time is a terrific cricketer. And yeah, he's been involved in that whole share sort of side. I remember talking about a long time ago, but I didn't really take notice because I was like probably [00:31:39][17.2]

Speaker 3: [00:31:39] probably the best from the shit I'm [00:31:42][2.2]

Usman: [00:31:42] going to stay in property. So, yeah, you're ahead of us. Look, if the [00:31:46][3.9]

Bryce: [00:31:46] Australian Cricket Association made a couple of ambassadors to help spread the message of the equity markets [00:31:51][4.8]

Speaker 3: [00:31:53] know I'm going to give you guys [00:31:56][2.9]

Usman: [00:31:56] give me some good tips, I'll be happy, but I'm going to hold you to them, too. But, yeah, you guys talked about funnily enough, you mentioned Afterpay. We said we're going to mention Afterpay now. But it was a funny one because I talked about investing when the market was down and I invested in Afterpay when it was down, invested in when I was about nine dollars. It was really bizarre. Invest in non Dollars the next day it went up 40 percent. I remember I was on the golf course with my father and I look at this. I was like, oh crap, I'm a genius. [00:32:26][30.4]

Speaker 3: [00:32:29] I'm not I don't dig the pits, but I saw 40 per percent. [00:32:33][4.0]

Usman: [00:32:34] And then funnily enough, that same time, I think it was a Monday after the drop, straight back down to forty percent. I'm like, oh boy. I'm like, I'm back to where I started. And I just sort of started obviously my my journey down. But I was investing in the advisory market at the time with John and all sort of my assets were in there. But I'm like, I want to stop mine because I want to take control of mine, sort of, you know, I wanted to be able to do things of mine. I don't have to rely on John all the time. So I started my own little bit and I was with CommSec at the time. And a book is saying the same day I didn't realise I had a cap. They had a cap on like smaller stocks at seven thousand dollars if you didn't have any equity at all, is equity in the advisory. But it didn't have any equity in my actual account because it's so brand new. So I try to buy Afterpay again on that day when it was down to the eight Dollars. And I'm calling I can't take a look at anybody's thing. What's going on? Not that I do. Afterpay is going to be like a junior stock. I just knew it was a very good price to buy and like, yeah, look, we can't do it. I'm like, what do you mean you can't do it? I've got all this equity and like, look, you're going to have to put money into the can of like, oh, I'll do it. What do I need to do it like now. But it'll take two days. I mean, you guys are killing me seriously. [00:33:43][69.2]

Speaker 3: [00:33:44] You're killing me. [00:33:44][0.7]

Usman: [00:33:46] And so I could invest in Afterpay that day. I wanted to reinvest in Afterpay and I would have let me I like it was off since then I'm off CommSec. I was like not a somewhere else. [00:33:57][10.9]

Bryce: [00:33:58] Are you still holding Afterpay in your account? [00:34:01][2.8]

Speaker 3: [00:34:02] Now, look, [00:34:03][0.5]

Usman: [00:34:03] look, I sold Afterpay at about thirty dollars. [00:34:06][2.8]

Speaker 3: [00:34:07] So SFUSD I thought, you know [00:34:11][3.6]

Usman: [00:34:11] what, I laugh at it and I think of it as another lesson. If I look back on it, I probably would have taken out what I put in and just left the rest of the money as almost like a bonus money and see whatever happens. Because I believed in the stock. I actually did believe and I still do because I saw it about four years ago when I tried to buy a basketball ring. I mean, I sort of rebel and I'm like, what's this? Afterpay four years ago? And I didn't end up getting a ring because my wife maybe return. She didn't like it, but I saw Afterpay then I was and I looked at research, so I knew what was what it was about. I've been on it for a long time and I actually used it, so I actually really liked it. If I look back on it, I probably would have done that and not sold it at thirty dollars, which sucks. [00:34:50][39.1]

Speaker 3: [00:34:52] At the time I thought it was three hundred [00:34:54][1.8]

Usman: [00:34:54] percent because I'm like, this is I actually thought. The market was going to retract and as we said, no one knows what the market was going to do when I was looking at everything going on with Covid and stuff like the market has to track. And I was listening to you guys. Do you guys assign blame, you guys? [00:35:07][12.9]

Speaker 3: [00:35:08] I, I like [00:35:11][3.6]

Alec: [00:35:11] what you said there about Afterpay that you saw in your everyday life when you're a rebel. And that's very much like the Peter Lynch style of in investing in what you know, and finding stocks in the world around you that people around you are using because they're generally doing something right. So you mentioned that as well as Afterpay. There are a couple of other individual stocks that you decided to invest in. Can you talk us through how you chose those ones? Was it was it a similar thing that you use them in your everyday life? What was that stock selection process like? [00:35:41][29.3]

Usman: [00:35:41] Yeah, that's exactly right. And Ed Cowan said the exact same thing to invest in sort of what you believe in and what you know, I'm a big tech guy. I love science. I love tech. I gravitate towards tech without even trying because that's what I use in my everyday life. So Keogan wasn't a random one. I've used Coggin for about ten years. I reckon I was using it a long time ago by mobile phones to buy other things Afterpay. I seen it, as I said, at Rebel and I used it afterwards. Things like zero, like my counted always send me the science stuff and I sold zero on there and like was a zero and I've been doing it for years using zero sake. I obviously don't use sake, but I know a lot of people that [00:36:19][38.3]

Speaker 3: [00:36:21] are looking for another reason. Three about he was looking for number three available. [00:36:31][9.2]

Usman: [00:36:32] So I'm so big. And I think next day say, here's another one that I invested in, but I'm just big on tech stocks in terms of where they're going, where they're leading. You see the Nasdaq and you see how great tech stocks are. And you see ASX is obviously dominated by the banks. The banks are awesome when they get their dividends back up. Covid goes past. Banks are great. But I can really see the tech stocks really dominating the ASX in the future, just like they have in the US markets. So for me, I think logically, which there's no logic in the markets, obviously, but that's the only way I can rationalise when I'm buying individual stocks. As I said before, I'm no expert. So that's what I stick to, what I know and what I use. And I believe in the product Collins food stocks. And I'm an avid KFC man, so invested in that. Don't worry about that. [00:37:21][48.8]

Bryce: [00:37:23] So to give some context, I guess, around how you construct your portfolio. So you mentioned sort of you five or six individual stocks there. But equally, you started your journey with ETFs. You kind of felt that they were the base and a good way to get into the market. And as a beginner investor, understanding how to build a portfolio that is somewhat defensive or I guess in line with your emotion and that sort of stuff, how do you think about constructing your portfolio or do you give it any thought at all? And what sort of your percentage white, I guess, between ETF and individual stocks? [00:37:59][35.6]

Usman: [00:38:00] No, I do. And it's very important and it's very different for every individual on where you are in your life, what you want to achieve. I think where I'm at in my life, I'm more interested in sort of the growth, the capital development, the capital sort of appreciation. And for me, dividend stocks. I have a few dividend stocks, but I'm more in terms of the growth. So when I'm investing in individual stocks, I'm thinking midcap things I think are growing, not necessarily giving a lot of dividends. I think if you do well in them, eventually they'll turn into big enough companies that do provide dividends. And then that's only for me. In an ideal world, I'd be about maybe 30 percent of my entire investing and the rest 70 percent would be in ETFs. I think, as I said, ETFs are a lot simpler. There are a lot more set and forget they give you the option of investing on the ASX, on international. You know, you got that, you know, the in the queue and the Vegas and the the VC. And if you if you want a hedged one, then all these different ETFs that provide a lot of great exposure to international markets to. So for me, as I said, I'm quite risk averse. I'm not here to make a million percent every year. I'm quite happy if I can average 10 per cent out, obviously like the average more. But it's not very happy because, you know, two or three percent inflation, you know, minus from, you know, what you what you get. And I think it's it's very important for me and my philosophy to be reasonable and to not get greedy is just the way that I live my life and the way I like to construct, I guess, my portfolio. And I think that's a very important when everyone, an individual is doing their own portfolio, you got to look at your own life and think, well, you know what's going to be right for me? How much risk can I take and still live a healthy and decent life I think is very important. [00:39:48][108.0]

Alec: [00:39:49] So it was meant for someone who is relatively new to the share market. You have a pretty clear idea of what? Your investing philosophy is and how you're thinking about controlling your emotions and stuff like that, so I'm interested to know what resources you use to sort of help you develop this philosophy and help you learn about the markets and stuff like that. Were there any that you found particularly useful and you would recommend to other people in a similar situation thinking about investing or having just started investing? [00:40:21][31.9]

Usman: [00:40:21] Not to float your own guys Buzz, but I think podcast. I think Equity Mates is [00:40:26][4.2]

Speaker 3: [00:40:26] actually the whole reason I got a lot of [00:40:29][3.5]

Usman: [00:40:29] listening. You guys actually do get a lot of it. I listen to you on the way to training pretty much most days. If you guys got new podcasts out, whether it's even talk about simple things as brokers. I was listening to your conversation about brokers the other day and I was listening to you talk about IJA and obviously Bryce talk about self-willed, which which I use. And, you know, you sort of listen to it and you got your own commentary. But I think it just creates a lot of great conversation. You learn little bits and pieces along the way. I mean, I've always read the Financial Review. I think that's great. That's the first thing I probably do. When I wake up in the morning. I go and Financial Review and read what's going on and I to see grown up in Sydney. So I'm still a subscriber for the Sydney Morning Herald. I read that. I think we're very lucky. YouTube has a lot of great info in there. It's up to the individual to decide what's good and what's fluff. And you've got to be careful with that because there is a lot of information out there. But once you start listening to it and hearing it, you see trends, you see people saying the same thing. And I was being a big player with smoke their fire, if everyone's saying similar things, that there must be something to it. So I think that's probably just about how I go about and getting information from different sources. [00:41:39][70.0]

Bryce: [00:41:40] It was just before we moved to our final three questions, which, of course, you're going to know exactly what they are. So maybe we'll test you and not ask them and you just answer them. [00:41:48][7.9]

Speaker 3: [00:41:48] All right. I'm not doing [00:41:51][2.9]

Bryce: [00:41:52] obviously, we love to have a bold prediction at the start of each year 2020 and probably putting you on the spot a bit here. But knowing that, you know, you're still a bit cautious about how markets are going at the moment. A lot to play out over the next four to six months here in Australia, both overseas, still very much in covid mentality, but market's doing all sorts of weird and wonderful things. Do you have a bold prediction for how you think markets might end or how you think? I don't know. The Australian cricket [00:42:18][26.2]

Speaker 3: [00:42:18] thing will stick to the markets, [00:42:22][3.8]

Usman: [00:42:24] obviously pure. Guess no one has any idea. But I still think there's a retraction in the I still think there's another correction. And that's been my gut for a long time. I'm looking at the US. It's not in a great state. Whether you look at the economy, where it's got, you know, the Covid cases, the civil unrest over there right now, there is a lot going on. Not to mention there's a there's an election coming up at the end of the year and got this got a Trump is absolute rogue and you just don't know what to expect. There are so many things that can happen between now and then. I feel like it's more things that can happen than usual and then even being tied into it. And what's going on with China, the man with Hong Kong and then flexing their muscle, flexing the muscle against Australia, you know, like what's going on over there? There's so much going on. I feel like there's a retraction on the cards this year. I just don't know how much or when I can imagine it's going to be anything like we saw in Covid, because I think that was more like end of world retraction going on the like end of world. We've gone walking dead, you know, zombie apocalypse type of thing that happened so quickly and so fast. I'm not sure if it's going to happen that quickly. I actually don't think it's going to happen that quickly. But my gut is telling me that there's going to be a correction this year at some point. And, yeah, when they'll be I'm not really sure. But I mean, I've I've been waiting for for a long time with you. As you guys have said, I'm going to stick to it [00:43:43][78.8]

Alec: [00:43:43] thinking about buying anything or positioning your portfolio in in any way given that bold prediction or are you thinking long [00:43:51][7.8]

Usman: [00:43:52] haul now? I've got savings that I haven't used up yet for that reason. And that's why I'm dollar cost averaging and that's why I love dollar cost averaging. So, I mean, I'm not not investing because I think it's going down. I will still slowly, steadily keep investing. But if I see an opportunity rise up like it did last time, then yeah, I'm going to go after it. And I think that's as I said, that's a part of my philosophy. You know, I've always said it's a win win situation. If I invest now and it goes up happy days, I'm winning. And if I invest now and it goes down happy days, I'll invest and get more shares for a lot better price. It's a win win scenario for me in the long term. So, you know, that's going to [00:44:30][37.6]

Speaker 3: [00:44:30] stick that like that. [00:44:30][0.7]

Bryce: [00:44:31] Yeah, well, we have your bold prediction on recording. Now that [00:44:35][3.7]

Speaker 3: [00:44:36] I'm going to be a genius, I'll have to have Afterpay and that [00:44:40][3.5]

Usman: [00:44:40] now if you like. Come on. [00:44:41][1.0]

Speaker 3: [00:44:41] It's got to happen. [00:44:46][4.3]

Alec: [00:44:48] Before we get to our final three questions, we normally hand off if our guest has any social media or anything. Obviously, you've got a big cricket. All and people can follow all of your cricket exploits, is there anywhere that you're posting about finance or anything like that, or are you going to convert that to a financial fad? [00:45:08][20.8]

Speaker 3: [00:45:09] If I go, [00:45:10][1.3]

Usman: [00:45:11] I want to be that guy, but [00:45:12][1.0]

Speaker 3: [00:45:13] I do have a podcast contest [00:45:14][1.0]

Usman: [00:45:14] of anyone interested in kicking it with coati. It's gold. It's a bit of fun. There's some really great guys out there. I reckon I might try to get you to out there at some point, get you involved. I like to talk to people from all walks of life. So if anyone is interested in something a little bit different than finance kicking in with Kawachi, have a [00:45:30][15.7]

Alec: [00:45:31] nice, nice, nice. Yeah, people should subscribe and they may say yes, they want to. [00:45:35][4.2]

Usman: [00:45:35] Yeah, definitely. I definitely see [00:45:36][1.5]

Speaker 3: [00:45:37] you. I'm getting, you know, after so [00:45:39][2.9]

Alec: [00:45:40] and so we'll get into the final three questions and we won't do a Bryce said where we just test you and say if you remember [00:45:46][6.0]

Speaker 3: [00:45:47] very well we'll actually ask you. [00:45:48][1.7]

Alec: [00:45:49] The first question is, do you have any books that you consider must read? [00:45:53][3.8]

Usman: [00:45:54] Look, I read a lot. I actually love reading. I read everything fictional in a non-fiction, but finance when I feel like it has to be relevant to Equity Mates. I haven't read a lot on finance, but I do have a must read. I guess in some respect. I read a book I think it's called That Will Never Work, and it was about the Netflix story. I think Mark Randolph moderated one of the CEO's initial CEOs of Netflix and it's like this is a fairly new book. It only came out a year or two ago, but it was actually a great read and being a tech guy myself, just to see where they started from selling their DVDs, you know, online and then renting them online to subscription online and then to see how the tech actually caught up to them and where they went from there. It's an amazing story. I think it's a great way to see life in general, but especially from the technological side about how things evolve and how quickly things evolve. And I think it's a it's a great lesson to see where the world is actually headed. So that's one book that I really enjoyed. And it's a good one about Netflix. If you like Netflix and Chill, read it at night. [00:47:01][67.3]

Speaker 3: [00:47:02] I love that. [00:47:02][0.4]

Alec: [00:47:02] I think Netflix is one of the best stories of just the hottest pivot's of a business, you know, just disrupting themselves, doing completely changing their business model. So I'll definitely check that because the second question is, what's your go to source for investing information? [00:47:18][15.1]

Usman: [00:47:18] I think I touched on it earlier, so I probably won't get too much as it's really, you know, I like reading. So in terms of rating The Australian Financial Review, I read a lot online on different places that might be, you know, Equity Mates competition. So I won't mention him. I think it depends on what you like and what you relate to. But I think for me, you know, Australian Financial Review is great. Just rating online in general is great being described to you to follow a few people that I really like listening to that speak, you know, that talk about logic, that talk about the market movements in terms of trends. They don't talk about any emotion I follow them to. I think that it's really important to just get a whole range of different places, get your information. So there's not really any one. I sort of use bits and pieces everywhere and obviously have CommSec, which I don't trade through any more, but they've got some pretty good stuff. [00:48:07][48.8]

Speaker 3: [00:48:08] I've lost a customer, so I'm actually I'm [00:48:13][4.8]

Usman: [00:48:13] actually going to make sure I get Bryce is handling itself well at the council. I can figure out what he's doing. [00:48:18][4.6]

Speaker 3: [00:48:19] Yeah, tracking talkative. [00:48:20][1.6]

Bryce: [00:48:21] Strategically, it is not my name. Would you [00:48:23][2.1]

Speaker 3: [00:48:24] mind? It does appear that you just [00:48:28][4.0]

Bryce: [00:48:29] want to look for someone in the top one percent. [00:48:30][1.6]

Speaker 3: [00:48:31] You can't even apply for one hundred percent. [00:48:36][5.2]

Usman: [00:48:38] I saw that thing you put out the other day when you first woodshed you Afterpay was like twenty seven thousand up from where you bought it. [00:48:44][6.1]

Speaker 3: [00:48:44] I was like golden voice. Yeah, it's better to be lucky than good after that. [00:48:50][6.3]

Alec: [00:48:50] And so the last question, if you think back to your younger self, you know, saving in your Dolomites account and then Googling yourself in the 90s and finding that you'd actually made a bunch of interest on it, what advice would you have for your younger self? [00:49:03][12.4]

Usman: [00:49:04] I think it would be to I know we're on a on a money making podcast in a way, but at least to find balance, I think it's really important that you invest and you invest right for yourself. And I think you live a life that you never know when it's going to end. And it's it's a bit deep to think about this kind of stuff. But you might not get to your sixties, right? So for me, it's about not getting too caught up in investing every single dollar you have. But to find a balance, find about the things you enjoy doing in life. Do you know whether that play PlayStation or if you like? You know, I feel like fast cars. There's nothing wrong. I know it's a depreciating asset. There's nothing wrong in life about enjoying things. So I think for me it's about having that balance, making sure you keep one eye, obviously, on investing and for your future and for your family's future is very important. But also at the same time, make sure it's not the be it, and all because I've seen a lot of anxiety and I'm big on that whole mental health region coming from cricket. There's a lot of ups, but there's probably even more downs that I've experienced throughout my careers. And it's taught me a lot of lessons in life. And one of them is to stay in the moment, to enjoy the moment and make sure you have a balance, everything in moderation. So if I told myself anything from a young age, I probably don't get caught up in everything else. Don't get caught up in what might happen 40 years from now. Try to find a balance and stay in the moment. And I think that's really important when you're investing because it can be very emotional at times and you need to make sure that you keep check on that [00:50:36][92.3]

Bryce: [00:50:37] awesome piece of advice to finish the Uzi, something that certainly resonates with me and a lot of I'm sure a lot of other people in the audience. So thank you for sharing and also thank you for coming on the show. I think we've you know, we've had a fascinating and fun conversation unpacking your short but wild investing journey. And despite only being sort of four or five months, and you certainly seem to have a pretty good grasp on who you are as an investor and and the strategies that you're trying to implement. So I think that's a really important takeaway for those still are listening. That might be in a similar position as you. So looking forward to you returning in a year or so when we can put expert investor. [00:51:14][37.2]

Speaker 3: [00:51:16] But I love [00:51:18][1.1]

Usman: [00:51:18] because I really enjoyed it. And what you guys are doing for people like myself and the community is great. I love listening to you guys. You're doing a great job, so keep it up. [00:51:26][8.3]

Alec: [00:51:26] Appreciate it. Thanks. Appreciate it. [00:51:28][1.4]

Usman: [00:51:29] Thanks a lot. [00:51:29][0.3]

Speaker 5: [00:51:30] Thanks for listening to Equity Mates investing podcast production of Equity Mates Media. Please remember that everything you hear in Equity Mates investing podcast is general advice. Only the content has been prepared without knowing your personal objectives, specific financial circumstances or goals. The host of Equity Mates Investment Podcast, May 19 positions in the companies discussed before considering any investment. Please read the product disclosure statement and consider speaking to a licenced financial professional. [00:51:30][0.0]

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