Expert: Are Semiconductors the Picks & Shovels Play for the Tech Industry | ETF Securities

Bryce: [00:00:15] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, a podcast that follows our journey of investing, whether you're an absolute beginner or approaching Warren Buffett status, our aim is to help break down your barriers from beginning to dividend. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you going? 

Alec: [00:00:30] I'm very good. Bryce very excited for this episode. I think if you think about industries in twenty twenty one, there's been none that are hotter than the semiconductor industry. It is a fascinating time to be talking about this topic. We don't know a lot about it. But the great thing about this podcast is we can get experts from all over the world to help educate us and really understand these topics better. So we've got a expert from the states today to talk us through it. 

Bryce: [00:01:00] Absolutely. This episode is proudly supported by ETF Securities in celebration of the launch of the new ETF semi, which provides exposure to 30 leading microchip makers and designers from across the globe. And as you said, Ren, to help us understand it all is an absolute pleasure to welcome. Patrick Penfield, welcome. 

Patrick Penfield: [00:01:18] Hey, guys, thanks for having me on the show. Appreciate it. 

Bryce: [00:01:21] So Patrick is a professor of supply chain practise at Syracuse University, Whitman School of Management. And he's really going to help us understand the basics of semiconductors, the changing landscape that we're currently seeing, the crunch on the supply chain, and also a bit about the future of the industry. So I hope you're ready. There's a lot to cover. Yeah, absolutely.

Bryce: [00:01:43] Well, let's start with the very basics for people that maybe have heard of semiconductors in the news but don't really know what they are. So what is the semiconductor and why do they matter?

Patrick Penfield: [00:01:55] So semiconductors are very small pieces of a material, either silicon or germanium, and they have integrated circuits that are embedded in the actual material itself. So they're the brains behind most of the electronics that we use today. And so they're incredibly important to everything that we use and consume, specifically from electronics standpoint. So, yeah, without the semiconductor industry, we wouldn't have a lot of the the conveniences and a lot of the stuff that we use today. So extremely bright. Again, the brains behind most electronics that you're using today.

Bryce: [00:02:33] So then what are some of the major companies in the semiconductor industry at the moment? And we'll get into them in a little bit. But yeah, if you can just give a high level view.

Patrick Penfield: [00:02:42] Yeah, I'm going to give you the top five of the semiconductor industry that are really pretty big and pretty prominent these days. So TSMC, they're there in the newspaper all the time these days. So you've got Intel, you've got Samsung, you've got Broadcom, you've got Qualcomm, you've got České Hynix. So those are probably the big players that that we have in today's industry for semiconductors. And there's some other ones. There's a lot smaller ones. And, you know, but those are the big ones that I think really have a big or presence within the industry. 

Bryce: [00:03:18] Yeah, we'll we'll touch on TSMC in a little bit, because it is just such a fascinating story and so critical. But I guess in terms of setting the scene, some of the major companies that are out there in terms of geographies, where is the industry centred? Are there any particular geographies that are really important for the semiconductor industry?

Patrick Penfield: [00:03:40] Yeah, about 70 percent of all the semiconductors come through Asia. So when I'm in Asia, I'm talking about Taiwan, Korea, Malaysia and China. So those are the countries that most 70 percent of your semiconductors come from. So, yeah, very critical. Asia is a critical source for semiconductors, and that's one of the issues that we have today where we've got this global supply chain prices, you know, trying to get stuff from overseas. So this is part of our Asian problem because you know why we're so we're so dependent on these semiconductors from overseas.

Bryce: [00:04:14] So the the semiconductor industry has undergone quite significant disruption in the past decade with TSMC foundry model, which is really enabled the rise of companies like Invidia and AMD able to explain this disruption to us. What is the foundry model and what was the world of semiconductor sort of pre TSMC and what it looks like today?

Patrick Penfield: [00:04:40] Yeah. So prior to the TSMC model, the foundry model, what would happen was if you were a company and you were producing semiconductors, you would have to invest in the foundry. In the foundry is a manufacturing plant, basically makes the semiconductors. And then also you're on the hook for the design. So the design, we had to do the manufacturing. So it kind of limited the amount of competition that was actually in that space. And so when TSMC came on on the scene and introduced this foundry model, it was a model that that was used in other industries. So it's called contract manufacturer. And so but interestingly, they used it for semiconductors, and so this is kind of what happens. So TSMC said basically, look, we will build your semiconductors, come with us, come to us with your designs, and we promise we won't compete against you. We won't steal your IP. What we'll do is, again, we'll produce what you want us to produce. So because that model, it changed the whole industry. So in the past, used to have to do everything. Now you had. Now you've got three types of actual companies within this industry. So you have what's called fabolous. So fabulous is your your Qualcomm's and your Broadcom. So all they do in your videos, they just produce basically a design. They say, OK, this is the chip that we want and then you've got your foundries and so your foundries are your TSMC. So those are the big production facilities. Those are the manufacturing facilities that take the design and actually make it. And then the third type of company that you have in this industry is the integrated circuit. They do the design to do the production. So that would be your Intel's. So that's what happened. So because of TSMC, it changed everything. And what I mean by changed everything, it really increased innovation within the semiconductor industry. So that's why we're seeing all these powerful optronics. This is why you're seeing this convergence of electronics that we've never seen before. So you look at your cell phone, just look how small it is in comparison to what it was 10 years ago. It's all due to the semiconductor chips. Yeah. So TSMC, again, because of what they did and how they broke the business model, really changed our world.

Alec: [00:06:56] Yeah. And I think for people who are wondering why, you know, you can't build your own foundry, it's one about two to three billion dollars to build a foundry these days.

Patrick Penfield: [00:07:07] Yeah, and that would be your basic one, right. So they go size up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's very capital intensive. Yeah. So that's the other thing is the expertise that's required in those foundries. Right. So there's only a couple that can do the real high end stuff, and that's TSMC and Samsung. And so TSMC right now is the game changer. They're the ones that can produce the stuff that Apple and Google and all these tech companies want the really precise and really small type of semiconductor chips.

Alec: [00:07:42] So TSMC change the game enabled companies that had good designs, but not ten billion dollars on the balance sheet to actually build a foundry to to get into the semiconductor industry. In terms of how that changed the industry, who what was some of the big winners and big losers from this disruption? 

Patrick Penfield: [00:08:01] Yeah, I think the big winners were the tech companies, your apples or Samsung. I think they really won on this because, again, of be able to do this convergence of technology, I'd be able to to miniaturise and be able to introduce new types of technology. Big loser, probably intel. So Intel was a dominant player at one time. It controlled everything and now they don't. So you see some of these monopolies that have gone away, like the Intel's the world. So, yeah, I would say probably the big winners are consumers and the tech companies, and I think they've really benefited from this type of technology. 

Alec: [00:08:39] Now, you're a professor of supply chain practise, and there is no doubt that we're seeing a pretty big crunch at the moment in the supply chain of semiconductors and some of the news coming out about the impact that that's having on some of the products that are being produced. We've seen stories of car manufacturers leaving out like GPS functionality and all sorts of bits and pieces that you would otherwise expect in there. So let's start with what's happening here in the supply chain of semiconductors.

Patrick Penfield: [00:09:07] Yeah, so it's it's all about supply and demand. Right. And so the impetus behind the increased demand was Covid. And so what happened is people couldn't go to work. Right? So we're all stuck in our basements and getting out of work. We couldn't go to school. We had to exercise at home. Right. And so we're still working and we still have disposable income. And so a lot of us were online buying stuff. Right, buying electronics and trying to update our cameras and microphones and computers and our phones and our exercise equipment. And so what happened is the semiconductors ubiquitous, it's used everywhere. Any type of electronics you have, you're going to have some type of semiconductor in there. And so that's what happened. That demand just skyrocketed. Right. So, you know, the the semiconductor industry, I don't think they were prepared to to be able to meet that demand. So we talked about the cost of of a factory. So there what I would term a lag industry. So until they get the demand, until they see demand, that's when they're going to build more capacity because it's expensive. Right. So you just don't want to lay in. Two billion, three billion dollars into a factory if you don't think you're going to have the sales, so that's kind of thing, do they back off a little bit? And then once they see that there's some demand, then they go ahead and make an investment. And it's called a lag investment philosophy. So, yeah, that was the major one. And again, it's caused a lot of a lot of issues and a lot of problems just because everything kind of changed and it's just a different demand. Parents do. And so, you know, we're all struggling with trying to, again, deal with this this particular situation. 

Alec: [00:10:46] Now, Bryce mentioned one of the key effects of this supply crunch, which was the auto industry. We've seen car makers take features out of cars because they don't have enough semiconductors. We've also seen some production lines shut down for days at a time because they haven't been able to secure semiconductors. But I imagine that the effects have been broader than just the automotive industry. What are some of the results were saying as consumers or what are some of the, I guess, effects on businesses that we're seeing across the economy?

Patrick Penfield: [00:11:21] Yeah, so let's let's talk about the automotive industry, so, you know, when covid hit the road again, this is really twenty, twenty one, they cut back on their orders. So, you know, the automotive industry is just in time type of a situation here in the US. And so that's one of the things that happened was, is that they don't like to carry inventory, so they cut all their orders for semiconductor chips. And so the semiconductor chips at that time. Twenty four, twenty five, big lead time. And so unfortunately, here in the States, things just pop back up in like June and they saw all this demand and so they were caught flat footed because they cut all these orders. Right. They're like, well, we need these chips, let's go get them. And then you have the electronics industry just really ramp up as far as their needs go. And the chip manufacturers actually make more money with the electronics than they do with the automotive semiconductor chips. So if you are a semiconductor chip company, you're like, well, you know, I got to the electronics. We make more money on them versus the automotive. So, you know, they don't have as much power as the electronics companies do in that particular part of the supply chain. So that's kind of what happened. Right. So we saw this this change. And so unfortunately, here in the US, it's really difficult to get a car. In fact, the US automotive industry, actually, the automotive industry as a whole, you know, they're going to have about one hundred, ten billion dollars less in revenue and twenty two to 10 to 20. Yeah, ridiculous amount because of a lack of semiconductor chips.

Alec: [00:12:53] So as an investor, if you are making more money on electronic semiconductors than automotive, first part of the question is why is that the case? But would I then be looking for the companies that have more contracts with electronics supply or manufacturers rather than one who might have a contract for providing semiconductors for Toyota and Tesla, for example?

Patrick Penfield: [00:13:15] Yeah. So to answer your first part of your question, so the reason why they're cheaper, because the more basic, they're simple. So they're simple semiconductors. So they're not the high end stuff that like an apple would want. So, yeah, I think if I were an investor, I mean, again, just looking at from a profitability standpoint, yeah. It probably would be wiser to invest in something that was more from a high tech electronic standpoint than automotive. You know, and Tesla's outside the they're just unique as far as that's what I wanted to know. Tesla, I just it's hard to describe what's going on there.

Alec: [00:13:51] Yeah, yeah. It's a it's a fascinating story that's playing out. But that is a that is a whole other podcast episode, I think, to try and unpack that whole business. So I think if we look at the supply crunch, you said it was largely driven by covid and how businesses responded to Covid, where sort of 18 months into Covid, fingers crossed that people are getting vaccinated and it's all going to end sooner rather than later. Do you expect the supply crunch to sort of dissipate with the end of covid, or is this something that might be around for longer?

Patrick Penfield: [00:14:28] You know, I think, you know, and I hate to be a pessimist, I would say probably we're going to see this this issue till the middle of twenty, twenty three. So, yeah, it's yeah, it's this third really difficult part. So here's here's an example. So we talked about Covid. This is the dilemma with this, this virus. Right. It it goes in waves and it goes in waves in different parts of the world. So Malaysia as a producer, I think they produce about seven percent of the semiconductors for the world right now. They're in lockdown, right. Because they don't have the vaccine. And so basically the country is all on hold. And so it's not just Malaysia, Vietnam, China. And so this is part of the issue. Right. So it's just 70 percent of the semiconductors come from Asia. So when you have this starts, stops like we're seeing, makes it really difficult to get that supply. So, you know, other if you think about the supply chain is a chain, right. It's just all kinked up is there's just different problems throughout the world. So I think if, you know, again, if everything is if we don't see more variants of the virus, if we don't see these these different lockdown's if things go back to normal sometime in twenty, twenty two, I would say probably the middle of twenty, twenty three is when you would start to see that bounce. Part of it is because I think the capacity for some of these foundries will be online. So they're, they're trying to add more capacity to their existing factories, open some new existing factories or open to move factories. And if that were to happen, then then you would see ample amount of capacity to meet the demand. The demand is just going to keep going up with semiconductors. Yeah, there's no ifs, ands or buts about that. That is going to happen. 

Alec: [00:16:09] That's a good sort of segway into, I guess, the future, because if you think about where semiconductors are going to be used in over the next few years, the Internet of Things is only going to become more. Prevalent connecting toasters and fridges and all sorts of bits and pieces to your mobile phone, they're all going to need semiconductors. So is that the future of the industry at the moment? How do you see? So the next five years, 10 years?

Patrick Penfield: [00:16:35] Yeah, absolutely. I just see huge, massive growth. I think the big things, 5G G so five years coming on the scene, you need a lot of semiconductors for that technology. So in order to again, to build the towers again, just to build the new phones. Yeah. You're going to need more, more sophisticated types of semiconductors. I think that's the other issue is, again, who can produce those really sophisticated semiconductor chips right now, TSMC? There are a number one, there are the the the ones that can produce the most sophisticated chips. Right behind them is Samsung. But they're not there. TSMC is still number one as far as the their capabilities as far as producing those types of chips, the real sophisticated. 

Alec: [00:17:19] And do you see do you see much disruption coming into these companies or is it sort of safe to assume that they are just going to be the leaders for the next decade?

Patrick Penfield: [00:17:30] Yeah, I would say at least for the next five years. I don't see. I think, again, TSMC, Samsung right behind them, nipping at their heels. I think you're going to see it's going to be those those two companies that are going to have the capability to produce the real sophisticated chips. Intel, maybe, but Intel's behind, you know, and so and that's not a surprise. I mean, Asia usually leads the world from a technology standpoint. But I think Intel, you know, until they make the investments and they really kind of focus on some of the technology, they might have a chance to catch up. But, yeah, the gap is starting to widen with these companies. 

Alec: [00:18:06] So if we if we say that the number one, I guess, thing about the future of the semiconductor industry is that all of these new devices, 5G, more silicon and cars, like all of these things, are going to drive increasing levels of demand for the foreseeable future. I think probably the second big thing is around the geopolitics of the industry, because it feels like that is a really big talking point at the moment and something that has potential investors. We need to get our head across from the US. They're trying to keep Intel afloat. The Trump administration was pushing TSMC to open a foundry in Arizona. At the same time, China is looking to build a domestic semiconductor industry. It feels like there's a lot of geopolitics at play here. So a couple of questions. First of all, I guess why why is semiconductors so important for national security? And then secondly, how do you expect the supply chains to change or how do you expect the industry to develop with this, I guess, national security lens put over the top of it? 

Patrick Penfield: [00:19:14] Yeah, I think from a national security standpoint, because of weapons. Right. So, you know, again, a lot of the the weapons that we use today are again, using a lot of electronics, using semiconductors. Right. So if you don't have that supply and 70 percent comes from Asia, then you're at a big disadvantage, especially if there's any friction or any issues or problems that are happening between countries, specifically China and the United States. So you could see where that could be a big disadvantage if things started to heat up. And I think the big concern would be China and Taiwan. Right. So, you know, and there's always, you know, there are always issues and problems and that's been ongoing. Right. But for President Z., you know, I hate to say this, but for him, for China to eventually take over Taiwan, that could happen in the next 10 years. And I hate to say that, but I think a lot of people are looking at that and very concerned about that particular situation, especially if you're in the semiconductor industry, because if China were to to take over Taiwan and that's a big if, you know, you're talking about almost a whole industry that would be taken over by China, especially TSMC. And so that could give them a significant opportunity to develop even more weapons. So I definitely. National security issue. Absolutely.

Alec: [00:20:37] Yeah. So does then a company like Intel, which is American, do they do they become then like a really important national company for national security reasons? 

Patrick Penfield: [00:20:49] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I think that would be in the United States. His best interest is to have somebody that could produce and have foundries, have the design, have that capability here in the United States. Again, for security purposes. You could see where that would be very beneficial. And that's and I'm a globalist, so I believe in global trade. And I think global trade, if you look through history, that's always been the best way to go. When you enact tariffs, when you have these these weird trade situations, it's just an. Very good for the world at all, the world thrives when there's no tariffs and we have just natural trade situations that are going on. And that's what I would prefer to see. And I'm hopeful that maybe that will happen in the foreseeable future.

Alec: [00:21:35] Well, as Australians with a population of 20 million and a very resource dependent economy, we're also big fans of global trade. And we need to say that to continue.

Patrick Penfield: [00:21:50] Are absolutely, absolutely. It's that it's the best thing for the world. 

Alec: [00:21:53] Well, Pat, it's been great chatting with you. We do. Thank you for your time. There's no doubt that you've highlighted the importance of this industry with what is going on in, I guess, how everything is now so interconnected with 5G coming online. It's such an important industry and it's great that now we have the opportunity to invest in some of these super important companies. So thank you for sharing your expertise today. Very much. 

Patrick Penfield: [00:22:17] Appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure, guys. It is great talking to you. If I can help in the future, let me know. Absolutely. 

Alec: [00:22:22] Thanks, Pat.

Alec: [00:22:28] So Ren, as we said at the top of this episode, ETF Securities have recently released a new ETF tracking the global semiconductor industry. And we've just heard from Pat about the huge opportunity that this presents. The ETF is called ETF Securities Semiconductor ETF. The ticker is semi's SEMI launched in early September. The ETF invests in the largest and most significant semiconductor companies around the world and achieved the highest first trading value of any passive ETF this year. Twenty twenty one on the ASX. So pretty awesome.

Alec: [00:23:02] Yeah, pretty unbelievable. And I've got to say, I just love the ETF industry's use of ASX ticker codes. Another another good one here with me, that alone. And that gets me excited about that.

Alec: [00:23:16] And we're joined by the head of distribution at ETF Securities. Welcome. 

Kanish Chugh: [00:23:22] Thank you for having me.

Alec: [00:23:23] So Kanish is here to just help us unpack the ETF in a little bit more detail. So let's start at the top. Kanish, why create a semiconductor?

Kanish Chugh: [00:23:32] The reason for creating an ETF to focus on on this mega trend of semiconductors is is twofold. One with the first to the market in Australia to give investors the ability to access this particular theme or subsector in a concentrated way. Prior to this, you would have to either, you know, we have a tech ETF that gives you exposure to the global tech sector. Now that ETF gives exposure to some of these semiconductor names, you can access semiconductor names through broad markets such as the NASDAQ 100 or the S&P 500, etc. or you can go direct as well. A bit harder to try not to say Taiwan semiconductors or some of those sort of ASML, for example, which is a Dutch based lithography company. So for us as an ETF provider, we want to bring unique solutions to market. And we thought there's a gap here. We saw demand and semiconductors is an interesting space. When you think about technology, the sector, it's broken into software, hardware and then semiconductors. And the best way I tried to explain it is semiconductors are the engine that drives the iPad. It's the future of everything that we use and currently from a technology basis. And that's where the big part is, is there's a long term growth. It's a mature industry. But in an industry that's really only grown significantly in the past 10, five, 10, 15 years because of technological advancements and it's dominated by some really big players. So there's sort of it's only a few players that are really dominating the space. 

Alec: [00:25:06] Yeah, I love that. We often speak about investing and picks and shovels here at Equity Mates. And the semiconductor industry is the ultimate picks and shovels for the technology industry. Doesn't matter who's going to win the race to General AI or electric cars or self-driving vehicles or any of these other technological trends, whoever wins, they're going to be reliant on the semiconductor industry to get there. So it is a fascinating space. And coming off that conversation with Patrick, it is just such an interesting theme that's playing out at the moment. I guess there's a number of different ways you could choose to invest in the sector. You could try and find an active manager. You could try and pick individual stocks yourself, or you can go down the passive ETF route, which you guys have created here. Why do you think the passive sematic ETF is the right way to approach this thing? 

Kanish Chugh: [00:25:56] So it's the right way to approach this thing for an investor that wants the exposure to the semiconductor industry, you know, if you want a broad exposure, well, then there are other options for you from an ETF perspective or a fund perspective. A lot of Australian investors also, if they just look at the Australian market, they're not going to get exposure to the semiconductor industry. They're just limited, if not zero names that pure place in the Australian market. So if you want semiconductor exposure, you have to go outside of Australia. And then to do that, you're either buying direct shares in the US and Europe. It's very hot to buy some shares inside Taiwan or Korea, which this ETF has exposure to from an active side. If you're wanting exposure to the semiconductor industry, it's dominated by a few names of the mentioned companies like Intel, AMD and video Qualcomm, TSMC, etc.. So if you want that exposure, why are you going to pay sort of one and a half, one percent plus for that? And I actually don't even know if there's an active manager that gives you just a pure play on this. Normally it's, you know, as a growth or an innovated innovation fund. So we really want to offer investors well, if they just want this exposure, why don't we just give it to them in a very simple form? It's 30 stocks within the portfolio. It's market cap weighted, which again is a bit new for us from a domestic perspective. We normally have a lot of mathematic ETFs are equally weighted. And the reason we did a market cap weighted approach to. So we chose to do that is the industry is dominated by big names and it's some of these names have monopolies within their spaces. Companies like ASML. And so it's basically that the view was to look at it from that perspective. And having that market cap approach meant that you got exposure to those big names, but also the tail as well.

Alec: [00:27:47] I think the other important thing to stress here is the industry is constantly being disrupted. And, you know, we've just come off a conversation talking about TSMC and the disruption that they brought to the industry and all of these companies who are able to be created off the back of that being videos and the days of the world. And now we're seeing another wave of disruption where a lot of the big tech names are trying to design their own circuits and semiconductors and stuff like that, like the industry is changing so much. And the great thing about this you've created is you're not trying to pick a winner. You're not you know, if it's outside your circle of competence and you're not sure like what the next wave of disruption in the industry is going to be, this gives you an opportunity to just back the overall theme and the overall growth in the industry, rather than getting deep on to nanometre circuit boards and trying to understand everything that's going on there.

Kanish Chugh: [00:28:39] And the other thing, I guess the point there is we often talk about it's really hard to pick a winner or loser, and sometimes you're going to back a loser if you go to the single stock path. So if you then do your research, find the stock potentially, there's a lot of risk involved in that. So for us, it's backing the thing. We know the thematic or the megatrend of semiconductors, as you said and as we've talked about the sun and sort of throughout this episode, it's not going to go away. It's the oil, the petrol, the future, whatever you want to call it. Know, there's an interesting stat, I think, that says that by 20, 30, close to 50 percent of cars will or cars will have 50 percent electronics within them. And I think it's currently sitting at twenty five. Twenty seven percent at the moment. And that's semiconductor chips as we move towards electric vehicles, which we know is the case. And, you know, with battery technology, that's going to be reliant upon semiconductor chips. So this is sort of what's going to drive the picks and shovels of of the future. And it's a great way to sort of play it. And for a lot of investors at the moment, when they're building portfolios, they're looking at subindustries and looking at the metrics they want to get that focus, whether it's to complement a broad market, whether it's to complement a single stock portfolio that they may have, this just gives them the ability to go overweight. So they may already have, say, our tech ETF, which, as I said, has about the it's about eight or nine names as when we were this overlap to the semiconductor ETF, but not in the same Waitz. But what you'll find there is you can then go even further overweighed by looking at just the semi ETF. If you want to look at semiconductors, for example,

Alec: [00:30:18] is the difference between this and potentially some other options in the semiconductor ETF space that may be available overseas? 

Kanish Chugh: [00:30:26] I think the big difference here is one, it's listed on the ASX offer an investor perspective. It's a lot easier to access. You're buying an Australian investment vehicle to access this space. It is where you physically replicate the index and that index holds 30 stocks. We hold on the line within that. All these thirty names in the whites that the index puts out now compared to some of the other semiconductor ETFs. And this is a mature industry. There have been semiconductor ETFs listed in the US for about, I think, 15, 20 years. A lot of them are dominated and focussed just on the US market. This is a global view. So we are looking at the developed market. So the US, Europe, Japan, plus Korea and plus Taiwan. So where instead of buying, say, the ideas of some of these Asian or European companies, we're actually buying the locally domiciled and listed companies themselves. So we're holding that those stocks so much more liquid stocks as well from a liquidity basis and from our side, it's a much more pure play from that perspective. 

Alec: [00:31:35] It's a fascinating space. And it's great that you've created this product for Australian investors accessible on an Australian exchange denominated in Australian dollars. It's it is a great option for people to consider. If people want to find out more about the ETF, its top holdings, where should they go to find out?

Kanish Chugh: [00:31:55] The best place to go is our website to ETF Securities. Dot com dot a you up the top. That is a products tab. If you click that, you actually get a full range of all that funds. We've got close to twenty funds covering a broad range of different exposures and the semiconductor ETF Semin is one of those funds and you'll be able to click on that view, the product disclosure statement, the fact sheet, a lot of other collateral. And we've got investment cases, product information on there as well 

Alec: [00:32:23] that can assure you love to see it. We always love seeing new ETFs come to market. Provide access to some investment opportunities that are otherwise a bit out of touch for Australians or to Ren point and your point, if you don't want to back in a winner or miss the losers, then this provides a great opportunity to back the thematic of semiconductors over the next few years or decades. So appreciate you coming on to all of those listening. Check it out. ETF Securities website and the ASX is SEMI. So we will be back with a few more episodes with ETF Securities over the coming weeks. So stay tuned. Thanks Kanish.