Community: DJ Tigerlily on aligning your investments with your values

HOSTS Alec Renehan & Bryce Leske|31 August, 2021

Meet your hosts

  • Alec Renehan

    Alec developed an interest in investing after realising he was spending all that he was earning. Investing became his form of 'forced saving'. While his first investment, Slater and Gordon (SGH), was a resounding failure, he learnt a lot from that experience. He hopes to share those lessons amongst others through the podcast and help people realise that if he can make money investing, anyone can.
  • Bryce Leske

    Bryce has had an interest in the stock market since his parents encouraged him to save 50c a fortnight from the age of 5. Once he had saved $500 he bought his first stock - BKI - a Listed Investment Company (LIC), and since then hasn't stopped. He hopes that Equity Mates can help make investing understandable and accessible. He loves the Essendon Football Club, and lives in Sydney.

On this episode of Get Started Investing, Bryce and Alec are joined by Dara Hayes… who you might know better by the name DJ Tigerlily. Dara is one of Australia’s most successful DJs… and her day job sees her touring the world, playing some of the biggest clubs across the globe, playing to tens of thousands of people all over the world, from Australia, Asia, Europe and the USA. What you also might not know is Dara is also passionate about ethical investing – she put pen to paper, metaphorically so to speak, and wrote a blog post on this topic back in 2019. She wrote eloquently about the power of voting with our dollars – and how we choose to invest can send a signal to the market. This episode is a deep dive with Dara on all of that today, but first, the guys hear about the beginning of Dara’s investing journey, and the lessons she’s picked up on the way.

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In the spirit of reconciliation, Equity Mates Media and the hosts of Get Started Investing acknowledge the Traditional Custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people today. 

*****

Get Started Investing is a product of Equity Mates Media. 

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Bryce: [00:00:29] Welcome get started investing in this podcast. We cover all the basics that you need to start your investing job. Are you joining us for the very first time, or is this the very start of your investing journey? Well, before you dive into this episode? Our fate is designed to go from the very beginning, so we strongly recommend that you scroll up to the Start and Heat episode one. However, if you are feeling brave and just want to dive in, don't let us stop you here at Get Started Investing feed. We unpack all the jargon, the confusing bits here, your investing stories with the goal of making investing less intimidating. And of course, along the way we want to have a good time. My name is Bryce and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you going? [00:01:06][36.8]

Alec: [00:01:07] I'm very good. Bryce very excited for this episode. We love sharing people's stories, how they get started investing and where they are on their investing journey here on Get Started Investing feed. But we particularly love it when we get people who who may not be known as investors, maybe known for other things. And and we get to unpack a different side of their lives. And and that's what we're going to be doing here. So I'm pretty excited for this one. [00:01:31][24.9]

Bryce: [00:01:33] Absolutely. Ren. Today on Get Started Investing feed, we've got Darren Hayes joining us, which might not ring a bell, but you might know her better by her name, D.J. Tigerlily DA is one of Australia's most successful deejays, and her day job sees her touring the world, playing some of the biggest clubs across the globe, playing to tens of thousands of people all over the world from Australia, Asia, Europe and the USA. What you might not know is there is also a passionate about ethical investing. She put pen to paper, metaphorically speaking, in 2009 and wrote a blog post on the topic, and we will link that in our show notes. She wrote about the power of voting with our dollars and how we choose to invest can send a signal to the markets. So today we're going to do a Deep Dive on that here about the beginning of Dollars investing journey, how she thinks about money and we're pumped. So welcome, Tara. [00:02:23][50.1]

Dara Hayes: [00:02:24] Hi, guys. Thanks so much for having me. That was a lovely introduction. [00:02:27][3.4]

Bryce: [00:02:29] We tried this. [00:02:30][0.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:02:30] Yeah, it was great. [00:02:31][0.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:02:31] It's lovely. You know, usually it's on just the same kind of thing. But obviously we're talking about something a little bit different today compared to what I don't want to talk about. So it was nice also. Yes, I used to play big shows all around the world, but now not so much. But that's fine. We're getting that [00:02:46][15.1]

Bryce: [00:02:48] the work in progress. Yeah, you used to and will again. Yes, absolutely. Covid pending. [00:02:55][7.0]

Alec: [00:02:55] We should tell you at the start of this interview that Bryce fancies himself as a bit of a danger. And he didn't play it. [00:03:05][9.8]

Bryce: [00:03:05] No, not anymore. [00:03:06][0.8]

Alec: [00:03:07] He played Canberra's number one night spot, according to him, moose heads. [00:03:11][3.9]

Dara Hayes: [00:03:12] Oh, my God. The moose had this mental it's known for your feet sticking the floor like sticking to the floor when you walk around. [00:03:20][7.5]

Bryce: [00:03:22] Glad for that and not the deejay's. So that's good to know. [00:03:25][2.8]

Bryce: [00:03:27] So I'm going I'm [00:03:28][0.7]

Alec: [00:03:28] going to try and stop him slipping. Any questions in just wanting? He might ask some [00:03:35][6.8]

Bryce: [00:03:36] folks, but it's totally fine. [00:03:37][1.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:03:39] Oh, God. And something a deejay podcast. [00:03:41][2.0]

Bryce: [00:03:42] Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:42][0.4]

Alec: [00:03:45] So Dara, we do like to start these these interviews with a bit of a true or false game. There's a lot of myths out there when it comes to investing, especially for people who haven't started investing and maybe a little bit intimidated by it. So we like to we like to try and I guess some of those myths with this game. So if we kick off the first, I guess, true or false question, true or false, has your very first investment been your most successful? [00:04:16][31.1]

Dara Hayes: [00:04:18] This is a good one. I think it's true and false. And I'm going to explain why so true. It was the most successful in that. It was the first kind of jump for me, which I think is amazing. And so if anyone to make the first investment, that's absolutely incredible. You know, and so my first investment was actually a property and I invested with my sister just to get our kind of foot into the property market, because obviously Sydney is absolutely mental. It's still, you know, ticking away, going fine. There's no necessarily thought to do anything crazy with it at the moment. It's kind of just a long term one. But false. It may not have hasn't been my most successful you it hasn't necessarily made me millions of dollars. Not that anything has. But, you know, there have been other investments that I think have been more successful from a financial stand. But it definitely was a really big success point for me and also for my sister in our lives to be able to join forces and do something together like that. So, yeah, it was it was a big moment and a successful moment, I think. [00:05:29][71.3]

Bryce: [00:05:30] And just a shout out to your sister, correct me if I'm wrong, but Gretta Hayes of the Hockey Rules, [00:05:35][5.0]

Dara Hayes: [00:05:36] well, that's [00:05:37][0.4]

Bryce: [00:05:37] the other one. [00:05:37][0.4]

Dara Hayes: [00:05:42] So, yes, Gretta Hayes is a hockey Bryce. She's my baby sister. She unfortunately isn't in that half situation. [00:05:49][6.9]

Bryce: [00:05:51] Sorry. [00:05:51][0.0]

Dara Hayes: [00:05:53] So she's obviously quite like she's maybe seven years younger than me, whereas the middle sister, Georgina, she actually should be on this podcast. She did fine at university and was doing like kind of investment banking and stuff in Hong Kong for quite a few years. So she's like the most financially savvy person. And she's actually taught me a lot about finance over the years, which is really good. [00:06:18][25.5]

Bryce: [00:06:19] Nice family of superstars. Yeah, I love that you see getting started on your investing journey as a success. I think that's that's a really positive way to think about it. True or false? You had a strategy in place before you started investing, folks. [00:06:34][15.6]

Dara Hayes: [00:06:35] No strategy. [00:06:35][0.3]

Bryce: [00:06:38] Let's just throw [00:06:38][0.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:06:38] money at a random house and see what happens, [00:06:41][2.8]

Bryce: [00:06:43] literally. [00:06:43][0.0]

Dara Hayes: [00:06:46] But you know what? Like, my parents are amazing. My dad is in finance as well. And so they've bought multiple places and renovated them and sold over like sold them over the span of their life. And so they kind of have helped us, especially with that property look for some factors in a property that might make for a solid long term investment. So I think that definitely did help. We were going into it blindly persay, but yeah, absolutely no strategy [00:07:14][28.0]

Bryce: [00:07:15] at the start. Yeah. [00:07:16][1.2]

Alec: [00:07:19] Or false investing is as hard as you thought it would be. [00:07:23][3.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:07:24] False but false, because I have epic guidance from people around me. I'm really not a numbers person. So I think if I didn't have guidance that answer might be true because it is quite overwhelming. There is so much to think about and so many elements to think about in saying that there's a lot of guidance and stuff that you can get for free online and like podcasts like this. So that's the true and false answer. Again, sorry. [00:07:54][30.4]

Bryce: [00:07:56] That's fine. And to close it out, Truffaut's investing is like gambling. [00:08:02][6.3]

Dara Hayes: [00:08:04] True and false? Look, I think that the way I see it personally and you guys might see it totally differently to me, is that some investments are [00:08:20][16.3]

Bryce: [00:08:21] more [00:08:21][0.0]

Dara Hayes: [00:08:22] likely going to be solid and have less risk associated with them than others. And other investments have a lot higher risk. But yeah, actually no fault. It's not like gambling. Gambling's a waste of time investing. It's like not a waste of time, even if there are risks. I changed my answer. [00:08:41][19.4]

Bryce: [00:08:42] No. Yeah. [00:08:45][2.5]

Alec: [00:08:50] So do we want to unpack ethical investing in this interview and get your thoughts on it? Because it's just a massive area of interest in the Equity Mates community. And I think more broadly, people of our generation really see ethical investing as a great opportunity to have their money make a difference. But before them, we want to we want to hear your investing story. And, you know, you mentioned there that you started with buying a house with your sister. But can you tell us sort of take us back and tell us how you got into investing and how you found those early days of figuring out the property market and then eventually figuring out the stock market? [00:09:30][39.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:09:31] Yeah, absolutely. So I'll start by saying I still have no idea about the property market and the stock market. Like I am learning so much every single day with the help of my dad and my sister, because they're both really financially savvy. And also my financial advisers are really great. And I think that's one of the things that I really like about it, is just there's so much to learn in this sphere and it is so much fun to learn all these different things and build up your skill set and your knowledge set over time. But so how I kind of got started was. Suppose it was maybe five years ago, maybe six years ago. So I've been deejaying for four or five years and I've been living at home with my parents. I'm not a flashy person at all. I don't buy designer goods. I just bought my first nice car this year, like 11 years after I started. I'm not into lavish things. It's just not how I grew up. And it's something that I think has really helped me with my saving and with my investment as well. And so I started to kind of accrue all this money in my bank account, as you do not paying rent, not really buying much, just working and living your life. And my dad has always really helped me look after my finances and kind of helped me do my taxes and things like that. And it got to a point where he said, OK, like it's time that we start talking about investing and you have a bit of money to invest. Now, what are you going to do with it? And the thought to me was always quite intimidating. The thought of taking out loans for a property or whatever you might be investing in. There was a lot of fear around that, I think. And also the thought of investing into the share market was also really overwhelming because I had absolutely no idea about any of it. I didn't finance a school. I didn't finance at uni, zero clue. And so, yeah, we just kind of have taken it step by step. And so the first step was just explaining to me all the different options of how we could invest and looking at how much money I had and how much money I was willing to, I suppose, with. And he was really great at explaining the different risks and rewards of property, both shares and all that kind of stuff. I will also say that when I started deejaying and running my own business, I didn't realise that superannuation was investing [00:12:06][155.0]

Bryce: [00:12:08] like, yes, [00:12:08][0.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:12:09] I literally thought superannuation was just a bank account that you put money into and then it just came to you when you are older. Well, so I once again, my parents have always been really good at making sure that I have have all those structures set up. So I probably started investing from the first year that I started deejaying, which is pretty cool to think about. Yeah, I just decided that I thought if I could afford to buy some sort of property, that might be a nice, kind of safe, solid first investment. And I could do it on my own with my sister. And that's when we decided to go into it together and buy something together. And I remember when we got the place, I felt absolutely nauseous and just sick with dread thinking about. Debt and a mortgage, and it's only become in the last maybe two or three years that I've really become comfortable with having debt and understanding that if you have money, you. Your money can work for you to create more wealth from a long term perspective, but it did take a long time for me to become comfortable with that. And I think it is something that people really struggle with, is thinking about getting into debt for the sake of more stability and greater wealth in the future. But it is something that's pretty freaky at first, I think. [00:13:38][89.6]

Bryce: [00:13:40] Yeah, no doubt. Looking at the size of the mortgages that need to be taken out to buy property in Sydney and Melbourne, it is terrifying. But you're right, if you if you've put yourself in a good position to be able to manage money, then servicing debt, good debt. As we explained on the show, there's certainly a difference between good debt and bad debt. But good debt where you're using it to build wealth over the long term can absolutely be an advantage if you if you can service and manage it, right? [00:14:04][24.3]

Bryce: [00:14:04] Yes, absolutely. [00:14:05][0.4]

Bryce: [00:14:06] I like your comment there as well around superannuation and not thinking of it as an investment early on, because for us, our experience has shown that a lot of the community at Equity Mates don't often think that they're investing in the stock market through their superannuation. And I think we'll touch on that a bit later. But good call out just in terms of like resources and bits of information and where you turn to get help. You mentioned that you've got family and financial advisors to help. How do you sort of approach those conversations? You know, from I guess when you first started, it was taking a lot of advice, but are you now going to them saying this is how I want to invest? [00:14:46][39.9]

Dara Hayes: [00:14:48] So now I actually have a financial adviser that I work with, so that's me. And then there's kind of like my dad, who is my go to for any kind of questions or lower level things that I don't want to take to my financial advice to say, you know, they still offer me a lot at the time because obviously I asked them ridiculous questions, but that's fine. And then it's my financial advisers and the financial advisers I have. They are kind of in the same building as the company that has done my mortgages for me. And so they all can kind of chit chat to one another, which is really great. And so the way the conversations work now is that we have a meeting once a year with the financial advisors and kind of just look at what's happening, what's happened in the last 12 months, what my goals are for the next 12 months. But they have a really big focus on looking at longevity and then not about doing quick cash grabs and crypto or whatever it might be. They're about providing like safety and longevity for my life. And I'm really aware as a female and as a deejay that my career isn't going to be forever. Unfortunately, I'm thinking when we have children, I don't think I'm going to be wanting to be touring every single weekend. I feel like that would be really [00:16:16][88.7]

Bryce: [00:16:17] difficult to take the kids with you. No way. [00:16:21][4.4]

Dara Hayes: [00:16:22] It's hard enough as it is on your own, let alone children. [00:16:25][2.7]

Bryce: [00:16:26] So be happy [00:16:27][1.2]

Dara Hayes: [00:16:29] you could make a TV show on the. But I'm sure you could. So I'm very aware that elements of my career at the moment do have a time limit and they're very aware of that as well. So I think the best thing that has been the best thing about working with them is that I've kind of given them a five year, 10 year, 20 year plan of how I want things to look. And they've really helped me to. I suppose put measures into place to feel more secure financially, which is really exciting, and so, yeah, every year we kind of have a check in conversation about how things are going and we either add money to this or take money away from this. And depending on yeah, that's depending on where I'm at in that kind of 12 months, we kind of fiddle things around a bit and set up some new goals for the next 12 months, which is really good. And yeah, my conversations with my dad kind of ongoing all the time. He's so epic and he's definitely part of the reason that I'm able to sit here and have conversations with you and feel confident talking about money and things like that. He creates a quarterly PAC for me, for my business, and shows like Gross Income, kind of what we paid out to people and different things like that, how much tax I'm paying, what my investments are doing. So like how much money I've got in my shares and my super and what my properties are doing and personal expenses, of course, which [00:18:01][92.2]

Bryce: [00:18:03] is always questionable, [00:18:03][0.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:18:07] but that's really amazing. So I go over to like my parents house once a quarter and we have like a business meeting as well as a financial meeting where I kind of just let them know, hey, this is what's going on in the company at the moment. And then he says, cool, this is how it's looking from a financial standpoint. So that's really nice to be able to have conversations, which I might feel awkward about coming from a background, not from a financial background, being able to have them with him and my mom and ask ask questions to learn about it. Well, while I'm doing it. [00:18:39][31.2]

Alec: [00:18:40] Mm hmm. Shout out to my parents and Bryce as parents if they want to do some quarterly financial report for us. [00:18:47][7.1]

Bryce: [00:18:50] I would love that. [00:18:50][0.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:18:53] Oh my God. Honestly, I'm so grateful for my parents because if it wasn't for them, you'd have to be paying someone to do all this stuff. And I don't think I'd have anywhere near the amount of confidence or knowledge and or even like. You know, I just don't think I would have done half the stuff I've done because just you don't think about it or you wouldn't know to do it, you know? [00:19:18][25.9]

Alec: [00:19:20] And I think it's so important having those conversations around money that used to be you don't talk about three things politics, religion and money. And I know that, like my my folks have a financial adviser, but they never really knew the right questions to ask or anything like that because people just didn't talk about money like their folks didn't talk to them about money. And when we started this podcast, you know, we're the same. We didn't study finance. We didn't work in the industry. And just knowing like what to ask, who to ask, how to find the right financial adviser, all of that stuff you just never really know. [00:19:55][35.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:19:56] No, absolutely not. And it seems, I think when you're starting out really overwhelming because you just, you know, nothing and you're literally stepping into an industry that is so massive with so many different elements and factors and so many different people who do so many different things. And, you know, you hear these horror stories of people investing in these companies and it goes sour and oh, God, like this so much at play. And, you know, people's relationship with money is really important, but also like kind of changes like how their life looks a lot of the time they know. How did you guys feel about, like, learning everything about finance? If you didn't study it or didn't work in the industry, did you find it overwhelming when you started or were you excited or both honest? [00:20:41][44.7]

Alec: [00:20:42] Honestly, I reckon we're going to have very different answers to this because Bryce Bryce has like the textbook growing up in a family where he took his pocket money and spent a third, saved the third and invested a third. So I reckon his answer is going to be very different to mine. But for me, it was so overwhelming. I like it still is at times. But, you know, I remember when we started this podcast, even we had no idea what we were talking about and we used it as an excuse to learn and to hold ourselves accountable. But yeah, I remember like confusing basic concepts in our early episodes and like just having no no real clue. Still don't know if I have a clue. [00:21:22][39.9]

Bryce: [00:21:24] Chase where we're running a podcast, so [00:21:26][2.1]

Alec: [00:21:28] we're faking it still. [00:21:29][1.0]

Bryce: [00:21:31] I like this relatable. [00:21:32][1.3]

Bryce: [00:21:33] Yeah, well I think overwhelming and exciting because as you said, da like exciting about the fact that if you pay attention to it, just in even the smallest ways, you can really set yourself up long term. And I think there's it's one of those industries that you can you don't have to go to uni and study finance and, you know, do a degree to be able to take control of your financial situation. You just need to give it a bit of time and energy. And the long term effect of doing so is massive. And I think that's exciting. But I can totally relate to the feeling of being overwhelmed. And I think that might never go away because, you know, one sort of step and you're like, right, I've got that. And then you look at the next and you're like, no, now I've got to think about a mortgage. So you kind of know that that's overwhelming. Then you think, well, I'm getting towards retirement, so I need to think about that. So I think there's always going to be those feelings as you go. But the main thing is just being active with it is the way I kind of think about it. You can't push these things under the carpet and think they're going to work out. [00:22:35][62.1]

Dara Hayes: [00:22:35] Yeah, it's like a never ending journey and learning experience. What you guys are doing is amazing and it excites me so much that there are so many more resources out there that are available to people online these days because being financially savvy and feeling financially confident, it's so important for your mental health and the health of everyone around you, even with your physical health, because, you know, being healthy costs money. And I just think especially being a woman like traditionally, we would just really not encourage to get involved in money. And I know that a lot of women in my life do have a lot of, you know, hesitations around speaking about money and, you know, interesting money stories or relationships with like their relationship with money. And I think it's it's really cool that it's starting to be spoken about a lot more and very exciting because, you know, it's very empowering. Feeling in control of your finances. [00:23:36][60.4]

Bryce: [00:23:37] Yeah. [00:23:37][0.0]

Alec: [00:23:38] Yeah. The stats are pretty crazy. I think it's eight percent of online investors in Australia are women. So like a massive, massive gap there. But the number of new investors coming into the market is majority women. So I feel like this is the generation where things really change. [00:23:57][18.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:23:58] Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That's awesome. [00:23:59][1.8]

Bryce: [00:24:00] So we love hearing about investing mistakes because there's a lot we can learn from them. So if you think you think and I'm glad that your financial advisors are not going for the short term crypto grabs like Ren is, he's always after the crypto cash grab. Are you able to share if there have been any perhaps one of your investing mistakes and what you've learnt from that? [00:24:26][25.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:24:26] Yeah, absolutely. So I think the biggest mistake that I made was just from not knowing. And that was I took out like a bunch of shares. I gave my, like, financial advisers a sum of money and like they invested them in different share portfolios. I supposed to create like a big share portfolio for me. And it was all blue chip stocks are like really stable and secure and providing relatively good returns. But it was with the idea of, you know, you'll hold these shares for a long period of time, will put the dividends back into the share market. And, you know, when you're older, you'll have a nice big lump of shares to to live off of whatever I want to do with them. And I was like, great, awesome. This is so good. And so I probably have them for like three years. And it was only two years ago that I started reading a bit more into the ethical investment and stuff. And I realised that not all but the vast majority of shares that I held were probably putting money into things that I really was not OK with, like coal mining and live animal exports and tobacco and gambling and all these things. And I did I had literally no knowledge that investing in a lot of these big banks and things like that were against everything that I believed in. And when I found that out, I called my dad straight away and I was like, you have to be kidding me. Like, how did I not know this? And he was like, Oh, no, no. I was like, oh, my God. So here I am, like trying to be vegan and trying to buy environmentally friendly clothes and soaps and all this stuff. And I'm investing like sums of money into things that are totally against what I believed in. So for me, that was a big mistake because. And it wasn't really a mistake because I had no idea, but I wish I would have known that earlier just because I think I felt a bit of guilt for doing that for a few years. And as soon as I found out, I went straight to my financial advisers and I said, this is not OK, let's change this. And so now my portfolio is green and ethical, which is awesome. And I'm super proud and super happy about that. I do, however, need to change my bank. I'm still with one of the big banks and I would really like to change over to a smaller bank. There's just been some conversations going on at the moment about what that looks like. So if you guys have any suggestions on which bank I should change to [00:27:10][164.3]

Bryce: [00:27:13] do, I do either know a green bank like I'm trying to think if there are any that. [00:27:16][3.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:27:17] Yeah, some are more green than others. [00:27:19][1.5]

Bryce: [00:27:20] Yeah. [00:27:20][0.0]

Alec: [00:27:20] Yeah. I don't know if this is the best one, but in terms of best marketing campaign, that has convinced me that the ethical is Bank Australia. [00:27:28][7.6]

Dara Hayes: [00:27:29] Yeah. Same. [00:27:29][0.5]

Bryce: [00:27:30] Yeah. That's a great Australia. Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:33][2.9]

Alec: [00:27:33] The ads are really good and it feels like they're taking a lot of boxes. [00:27:36][2.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:27:37] Yes. Yes, yeah I agree. I think the difficult thing is I have a couple of loans and everything, like there's like a lots of different things happening under my name in the one bank. So I think it's going to be a bit of an effort to pick it up and take it to a new bank. And I think that is still. [00:27:58][21.0]

Bryce: [00:27:58] Well, that's how they get. [00:27:59][0.6]

Dara Hayes: [00:27:59] Yeah, absolutely they do. And I think this quite a lot of hesitancy around these new banks because they are new and they don't necessarily have like that solid, secure feel of like one of the big four. Um, so, yeah, I don't know. That's a work in progress. I we'll see what happens over the next 12 months, but that's my current thing that I am looking at. Looking into changing. [00:28:26][26.3]

Bryce: [00:28:27] Well, I think that's a good place to move to the discussion around ethical investing. As we said at the top, it's it's something that you're obviously quite passionate about. Before we do, though, we'll just take a quick break from our sponsor. So let's chat ethical investing, obviously a passion, a big topic of interest for the Equity Mates community as well, one that is difficult to get your head around. Sometimes there's many ways that you can approach it. So let's start at the top, I guess. Where does the passion for ethical investing come from? [00:29:01][33.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:29:02] So for me, it started with veganism and I went vegan, not for ethical reasons whatsoever, for health reasons, totally about myself. And when I saw what it was doing to my body, I came into the vegan. I suppose world with a whole heap of health issues got problems, inflammatory problems. I actually had like a low grade Crohn's diagnosis, which is an inflammatory bowel disorder. And I had just I was not in good shape mentally, physically, spiritually came across this idea of, you know, just eating a plant based diet and started doing it and saw incredible results really quickly and felt a million bucks. And so once I was seeing these amazing results, I thought to myself, this is something to this. I'm going to like look into it a bit more. That's always me jumping in the deep end and being like, oh, this is pretty good. Let me let me set this out a bit more. And then I realised that there is this whole lifestyle and thought approach that comes along with veganism, which is, you know, treading lightly and trading animals with respect and kindness and thinking about how every decision you make, not just food, is a political decision. And it is like a financial decision and a social and cultural decision because, you know, if I go to the shops and I am buying like shampoo, I have the choice of choosing one of two. They look exactly the same. They probably do exactly the same thing. But one of them is tested on animals and one is it. So if I use my dollar to buy the one that isn't tested on animals and has an animal product in it, that's me saying this is what I care about. And for me, this is what's important. And I've kind of taken that idea from veganism and put it into other things in my life, which includes investing, obviously. So using my dollar to say this is what I care about and this is important to me. And I think that if everyone took the same approach and used their dollar, big or small, to invest in ethical superfunds and ethical companies and just companies in general, then there'd be a lot of epic things happening in the world. So, yeah, that's kind of how it started and. Yeah, that's out that's where we're at at the moment. [00:31:32][151.0]

Alec: [00:31:33] Yeah, it is. It's so true that a lot of people focus on the the consumer side of how you what you buy, but what you invest in can be just as impactful. I guess people get lost in ethical investing a little bit because there's so many different, I guess, aspects to it. And, you know, you mentioned animal rights. That's a big one. Climate change is obviously a big one. But there's so there's so many different things that I guess can become a priority. And then, you know, things can come into conflict. You know, a company can be really good with climate change, but really bad with, like Labourites or something like that. So what are the key things that you're, I guess, looking out for when it comes to investing ethically? [00:32:17][43.9]

Dara Hayes: [00:32:19] So for me, when I realised that my shares were not ethical by any means, I went to my financial advisers and said, whoa, what the heck? And they were like, oh, yeah, we didn't really think about that. And they had actually never done a green portfolio for someone before. I'm probably the youngest client. And so a lot of the clients aren't really interested in this kind of thing, which is fair enough because, you know, they've never really cared about it. So for me, I think the main things were the environment and making sure that I wasn't giving my dollar to live animal exports. And that is a big thing coming from the vegan standpoint, I suppose. And I dare say that'll probably change over the years when I have children. But yeah, those were my big two concerns that I brought my brought to the attention of my financial advisors. So like not putting money into coal and things like that and mining and yeah, the live animal exports with a big to niños for me. [00:33:26][67.6]

Bryce: [00:33:27] Is the portfolio made up of a lot of ETFs or is it like predominantly individual companies? [00:33:32][4.6]

Dara Hayes: [00:33:32] So my portfolio is made up of, I think, Australian ethical. There's a lot in there and Magellan, some stuff in there and then I have some more of my portfolio is in like a real estate trust. I think so. Just in. Real estate, and that's pretty much it, so it's kind of divided between those three. [00:33:57][24.9]

Bryce: [00:33:59] Yeah, nice love, Magellan. [00:34:00][1.3]

Dara Hayes: [00:34:01] Yeah, I like when I pull up my financial adviser, like, told me about them, I like did some reading and I was like, whoa, this is so cool. Like, I just had no idea that any entities like this existed. And then being able to let go of their sites and read all about them was. Empowering for me, because it just made me excited that people had thought about these things that I was thinking about. You know, it felt really good, I walked out of the office that day thinking that I was just on this brand new learning experience and journey, and I felt like I could be finally confident that my money was going to something that, you know, aligned with my beliefs, which is very important. What about you guys? What do you like from an ethical investing perspective? Is that something that should be pouring my money into. Tell me? [00:34:49][48.0]

Bryce: [00:34:51] I'll be honest, [00:34:52][0.5]

Alec: [00:34:52] I don't think Bryce invests ethically [00:34:54][1.2]

Bryce: [00:34:56] what can [00:34:56][0.8]

Alec: [00:35:00] I I. [00:35:01][1.0]

Bryce: [00:35:02] Yeah, I'm on my journey of being convinced that I should be doing it. [00:35:05][3.3]

Dara Hayes: [00:35:06] Why should I be doing it? [00:35:08][1.9]

Bryce: [00:35:09] I'm not convinced that I should. I don't I don't need convincing. I don't think I'm actively going out there being like, let you know I'm all in on coal and oil and and gas. I think I have any any investments in. Well I mean I would through six, two hundred and that sort of stuff, BHP and Rio and stuff. Yeah. But I don't invest with, with the first sort of layer or filter being green investments. That's not how I approach my investing philosophy, but that's not to say that I won't. [00:35:44][34.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:35:44] Can I make you think about something. So this is how I thought about it. It was like a little bit more expense, like there was a cost involved changing. I bought all my shares and it may not be as profitable in the next, let's say, five years. But think about it this way. What are people investing in at the moment like for the future? It's all about climate change. It's all about changing the way we think in the way we live, because we know that the world is behaving like it's a massive issue and we all know it's true now, like there's no climate deniers like. Can't even be a thing anymore. So from a financially savvy perspective, the smartest thing to invest in long term is green stuff, because that is what is going to be happening in 100 years time. Like this is going to be no coal in 100 years time. It's going to be a gas in a hundred days time. So you should be one of the people that jumps on the bandwagon right at the beginning, being like, hey, grain companies take my money. So financially, it's smarter as well. [00:36:44][59.9]

Bryce: [00:36:45] Yeah, well, I think from that point there's no like in terms of performance, green investing does actually do quite well. [00:36:52][6.6]

Alec: [00:36:53] There's some it's done better. [00:36:55][1.8]

Bryce: [00:36:55] Yeah. It out there. Yeah. From that point of view. Spot on and yeah. I don't disagree. I think that eventually they won't be a thing as sustainable investing like all these companies are going to have to, to, to continue to get investment from shareholders. They're going to all have to meet some sort of RSJ sustainable measures. Otherwise people are just not going to invest. So yeah, um, but at this stage, when the BHP and the Rio is in, the Fortescue's still around there is that alternative. [00:37:36][40.7]

Alec: [00:37:37] But yeah. Yeah, I think, I think I was a little bit unfair to Bryce throwing him under the bus. He's mildly excellent. [00:37:44][7.3]

Bryce: [00:37:48] But yeah, I [00:37:48][0.5]

Alec: [00:37:49] think, um, I think if you look at how most people in our generation invest, the the companies that are defining the future are also the companies that sit in ethical funds, because to some they're the companies that are sort of moving where the world is going rather than, you know, clinging on to like legacy industries or legacy way of doing things. Yeah. So I think a lot of people, even if they're not actively saying ethical is number one for me, I reckon a lot of the companies that they own will be the ethical ones. You don't you don't see a lot of 20 year olds saying, I'm going to go all in on BP and Exxon. [00:38:27][38.2]

Bryce: [00:38:28] No, no, absolutely. Except for Bryce. That is true. Yeah. [00:38:37][9.2]

Bryce: [00:38:38] What I think is most challenging about this and is the fact that it's so great luck and I don't think it's been nailed at the moment. And it's something that Ren and I often talk about. It's your your view on ethical investing could be completely different to my view on ethical investing and what my values are and what I'm looking for in a company. Same with Ren. And so between all three of us, we could all have a different approach and all we do investing in different companies. And so finding information on that, building a portfolio that aligns with your values, digging deep on companies as well, like surface level, it might seem that through their annual reports, they've got SJT and that, you know, everyone talks about RSJ these days. But if you dig under the surface, they might be involved in child labour or using plastic and testing on animals or whatever it may be, depending on which way you view a company, they could either be ethical or unethical. So I think that's a real a real challenge as well. [00:39:39][60.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:39:39] That's what I am trying to get more information on at the moment. But like, I kind of want to know, like more of the nitty gritty. I'd like something I'd love to know. And I don't know exactly. It's like how and why these companies are making decisions and investing what they're investing in. Like who's sitting there ticking the boxes, being like, oh, yeah, cool, we'll invest in this. But yet they do test on animals. But this is OK, no child labour and. Oh yeah, this one's OK. No live animal exports all but there's a bit of, you know, environmental damage. OK, but that's OK. I still do that like like what's the process? I want to know more about that and I don't know that yet. So that's something that I would like to find out more about, I suppose. So I can like be more confident moving forward and like continuing to invest like who is making the decisions and what are they thinking about when they're making those decisions and what that looks like for then how might Dollars working for them and to me. [00:40:39][59.1]

Alec: [00:40:40] Yeah, we on the podcast, we've interviewed a few ethical managers who sit in those investment committees and have those conversations, and we it's really interesting to hear how they think, because with every company, very few companies are like 100 percent ethical or 100 percent unethical. And so it's always like balancing like, yeah, you know, they get a ticket, they get across here. And the classic example features SOPA, which is one of the big ethical super funds. They manage an ETF with Baidu shares and Ethical Investing ETF, and they recently took Tesla out of it. And you think Tesla like electric cars, you know, transitioning away from fossil fuels to renewables. But they decided that it was unethical because of some of the labour practises, like having workers go back to work during Covid and stuff like that. Yeah, that was an interesting one, where it's like a company that you think is quite ethical. They've taken out and then it's like, well, every company has that sort of balancing of like some good things, some bad things. [00:41:46][65.8]

Dara Hayes: [00:41:47] And that's just like I feel like it comes down to not even companies, but that's just like the problem of being human is that, you know, we can do all we can to lighten our environmental footprint and, you know, put our money in the right places. But at the end of the day, we're still human and we're still consuming and causing damage, you know? So it's like that's where it comes back to what I said before about, you know, things look ethical, different things look ethical for different people. So you kind of have to find out what works for you. No company is going to take all the boxes. So you have to kind of find the one with the ticks that suit your frame of mind. [00:42:26][39.7]

Alec: [00:42:28] I do. I do want to leave this part of the conversation, though, on a positive note, because, you know, we've just spoken about how difficult it is to figure out what's ethical and what's not. Before Bryce and I were doing Equity Mates full time, I worked in the sustainability team at Coles. And while I was there, you see the impact that ethical investing has on companies like the interest that came. My boss was dragged into more investor meetings like it. Ethical investing does impact the way companies prioritise it. So it can be confusing. It can be difficult to figure out what where a company sits. But like I saw firsthand, the impact that it has. [00:43:09][40.5]

Dara Hayes: [00:43:09] That's so nice and that makes you feel so warm and fuzzy. [00:43:12][2.9]

Bryce: [00:43:13] Hey, I love this. Oh, awesome. [00:43:17][4.1]

Bryce: [00:43:22] I am conscious of time dhara and we very much appreciate your time. I want to touch on Super very briefly before we just close out with a final question or two. So you mentioned at the start that at the start of your journey you didn't think about super as an investment, thought it was just a bank account that poured out money at some point down the track. How do you do you invest ethically through your super fund as well? And like, how do you approach your super? [00:43:53][31.1]

Dara Hayes: [00:43:54] Yes, I do. So I am with Australian Ethical Super. I think that's what they're called anyway. And I changed that over as well. I used to be with rest and they kind of looked pretty good, taking a lot of boxes in attracting young people and making super seem like fun and easy and things like that. But I think Australian ethical is much better for me now. Yeah, it's crazy that I never thought I really never thought about Super as being an investment. And it really blew my mind because I did I did only find out about it a few years ago lol. [00:44:31][36.9]

Bryce: [00:44:34] I feel like this [00:44:35][1.1]

Dara Hayes: [00:44:35] is just like that realisation is just me on my financial journey, but I'm happy to talk about it because there'd be so many people in my situation that just don't really have don't really have any idea and lots of small business owners that are really like in the dark about all these things because they're not told about it. And so yep, I'm continuing like putting money into my super. And actually a priority for me is to kind of max out how much money I can put into my super each year because it's good for tax and also makes me feel like I'm putting money somewhere that, you know, is in alignment with my morals and my beliefs. And it's also a really good investment for me personally, for the long term health and security of me and my family, especially being conscious of my career and not knowing when that's going to kind of settle down or what that's going to look like when we have children. So super is a really big part of my investment portfolio, and it's something that is really important to me to be putting as much as I can kind of. Today for my financial health long term, [00:45:42][67.1]

Alec: [00:45:43] and so I think you're definitely not alone with the super thing, a lot of us, a lot of young Australians aren't thinking about their super enough. So it's it's good to hear that, you know, you've really thought about what super fund you're going with and then how much you're putting in, because I know and this is speaking from personal experience, but also people that I've been speaking to, they just whatever their employer tells them to set up, wherever they tell them to set up a fund, that's where they end up. How did you so obviously ethical investing was a big priority for you, but how did you choose Australian Ethical over the other potential ethical super funds out out there? [00:46:25][41.6]

Dara Hayes: [00:46:25] Well, it was just like, I suppose, from advice from my financial advisers, I'm not going to lie and say that I spent hours researching which one was better over another one. I think it came just after speaking with my financial advisers and telling them what was important to me. And this is, I suppose, tricky in that I'm not doing it all myself. I do have help and I do have assistance and I do take their advice. So, yeah, that was their advice for me and I was happy to take it. But I know that, you know, there's so many different options. And, you know, when you Google, there's just loads of options that people can can choose. And I suppose it comes back to what we were talking about before in that, you know, what is important to you. It's good to choose one that reflects what's important to you. Who do you guys invest in with your super? [00:47:14][49.0]

Bryce: [00:47:16] I'm with host at the moment, but we're doing a bit we've actually done a lot of content recently on superannuation that has led to a full internal audit here at Bryce Leskie Holdings. So, yeah, I'm actually having a bit of a Deep Dive at the moment. [00:47:32][16.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:47:33] Yeah, I could tell you with Ren. [00:47:35][1.7]

Alec: [00:47:36] I'm with Super Hero, and they're like a platform where they're not like a super fund where they invest for you. It's like you can invest it yourself, but it's not self managed where you have to, like, do all the accounting and tax. Um, so I just moved. [00:47:52][15.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:47:53] Yeah, cool. So it's kind of managed, but you get, I suppose, independence with putting your money in different [00:48:04][11.0]

Bryce: [00:48:05] places that are important. And that's really cool. I like that. [00:48:09][3.7]

Alec: [00:48:10] Yeah, it's good, I like it just because you can say it and you can take control of it and you'll be pleased to know there's not a coal miner or, you know, non grain stock inside. [00:48:20][9.3]

Bryce: [00:48:22] I don't believe in all this. [00:48:23][1.1]

Bryce: [00:48:26] Oh, my God, that's very funny. [00:48:28][2.4]

Dara Hayes: [00:48:30] I feel like there are so many. What I sometimes I feel like there are so many amazing platforms and things these days that didn't exist like five or 10 years ago. And even really cool apps that are, you know, allowing investment and just the exploration of all these different things accessible to people like all the apps that, you know, the round up apps where you round up your purchases and then it creates like a little saving platform for you or these investing apps that you can, you know, put a tiny amount of money in. Like you could put like 20 bucks, 50 bucks or whatever with no fee, like really low fees compared to, say, like Comsec or whatever you might be using. And it just is making it so. Epically accessible for people, especially young people, and like you can see where your money is going and kind of experiment and play around, which is really cool because I feel like I did five years ago, there wasn't a whole heap of stuff like this and people weren't talking about it either. [00:49:29][58.6]

Bryce: [00:49:30] Yeah, absolutely. We actually just wrote a book. I've actually just got it here and it's easy. What have we twilit. It's easier than you think to invest in shares. And I think the whole point is exactly what you've just said, that there has been no time in history that is easier to actually start investing in the stock market with as little as a few cents. So there's almost no excuse these days to not take some sort of approach to investing in the stock market. Great little plug there for a book, by the way. [00:50:02][31.7]

Dara Hayes: [00:50:02] Yeah, I love that. Oh, by the way, I've just written a book. Yes. [00:50:05][2.6]

Bryce: [00:50:05] Yes. Wow. OK, great. Yeah. Look. [00:50:10][4.3]

Bryce: [00:50:10] Launches soon, so. [00:50:11][0.8]

Bryce: [00:50:11] Oh my gosh. When's it out. We'll send you. I would love to read it. Yeah, that [00:50:16][4.2]

Dara Hayes: [00:50:16] would be amazing. I was just going to say, I think it's yeah. It's such an exciting time. And like, I would just really encourage people like I hope if the people that are listening to this can understand that I'm not necessarily super financially savvy, I still learn stuff all the time. You know, I make mistakes all the time, I'm sure. And there, I'm sure going to be so many more changes with my bank and with my share portfolio and even just with my knowledge of things. But like the fact that, you know, you can just take small steps every month or every year, like whenever you're looking at your finances to slowly make changes. I think it's it's exciting. And I think people should be not intimidated to talk about it and make mistakes and learn and, you know, have a go at [00:51:01][45.5]

Bryce: [00:51:02] investing where you just summarised the whole conversation incredibly well. So I think that's a really good I think that's a really positive note to end on with some great pieces of advice as well in there for those who are looking to start their investing journey or at least start taking more control of their money more broadly. So it's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you. Thank you for being so open with how you treat your finances and and are approaching your investing journey from an ethical point of view as well. I'll endeavour to have a better answer on how I'm ethically investing next time we chat. But as we we really do appreciate your time and all the best with hopefully getting back out there on the world stage at some point when all of this Covid stuff allows you to do so. Thank you very much. [00:51:48][46.3]

Dara Hayes: [00:51:49] Thanks, guys. It's been so nice to chat to you. It's yeah. Really fun for me to have conversations about this when I get the opportunity to say yes. Thank you for your time. [00:51:49][0.0]

[2908.6]

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