Australia’s generational energy opportunity | ETF Securities

HOSTS Alec Renehan & Bryce Leske|11 October, 2021

Meet your hosts

  • Alec Renehan

    Alec developed an interest in investing after realising he was spending all that he was earning. Investing became his form of 'forced saving'. While his first investment, Slater and Gordon (SGH), was a resounding failure, he learnt a lot from that experience. He hopes to share those lessons amongst others through the podcast and help people realise that if he can make money investing, anyone can.
  • Bryce Leske

    Bryce has had an interest in the stock market since his parents encouraged him to save 50c a fortnight from the age of 5. Once he had saved $500 he bought his first stock - BKI - a Listed Investment Company (LIC), and since then hasn't stopped. He hopes that Equity Mates can help make investing understandable and accessible. He loves the Essendon Football Club, and lives in Sydney.

In this episode Bryce and Alec talk to Dr Fiona Simon, the CEO of the Australian Hydrogen Council, the peak body for Australia’s hydrogen industry with members from across the hydrogen value chain. They talk about Australia’s unique opportunity with hydrogen, and the future of the industry. Then they chat to Kanish Chung, from ETF Securities about their recently released ETF tracking the global hydrogen industry – ETFS Hydrogen ETF (ASX Code: HGEN). HGEN provides exposure to hydrogen economy including fuel cells, electrolysers, refuelling stations and green hydrogen.

This episode contains sponsored content by ETF Securities

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Bryce: [00:00:15] Welcome to another episode of Equity Mates, the podcast that follows our journey of investing, whether you're an absolute beginner or approaching Warren Buffett status. Our aim is to help break down your barriers from beginning to dividend. My name is Bryce, and as always, I'm joined by my equity buddy Ren. How are you going? 

Alec: [00:00:29] I'm very good. Bryce I'm pumped for this episode. There's probably no more exciting topic in the Equity Mates community at the moment than hydrogen. But I'm going to be honest, I don't know a lot about it, so I'm excited for this interview because I feel that we're going to learn a lot and be a lot more informed by the end of it. 

Bryce: [00:00:46] Thanks for your honesty. I also don't know a lot about it, so equally as excited. This episode is in celebration of ETF Securities Latest Hydrogen ETF, H.T. and and. And we have an expert joining us today to really help us unpack the industry. It is our great pleasure to welcome Dr Fiona Simon to Equity Mates. Fiona, welcome. 

Fiona Simon: [00:01:06] Hi. Lovely to be here. 

Bryce: [00:01:08] So Dr Fiona Simon is the CEO of the Australian Hydrogen Council, which is a peak body for Australia's hydrogen industry with members from across the hydrogen value chain. So today we're going to be unpacking it from a basic level, having a chat about Australia's opportunity. And then also the future of hydrogen. So if you if we if we start at the top and a lot of us are very unfamiliar with hydrogen, so we've got to ask the question why hydrogen? 

Fiona Simon: [00:01:36] Well, that's that's the absolute first and best question. Great. That's right. So hydrogen really has this fundamental role to play to support renewable electricity and batteries for us to move to decarbonising our whole economy. Hydrogen basically is our saving electricity in a molecular form, much like current liquid fuels or fossil fuel gas methane. We have a molecular form for that energy, and it actually means that you can then transport energy out very long distances. You can transport it not only through space, but also through time. You can you can store it for long periods without losing the energy value. So first of all, where it makes sense to electrify things and the economics work, the engineering works, we absolutely support the lowest cost way of getting to to net zero to decarbonise the economy. But there are areas where using renewable electricity straight from the farm or straight from the grid or using batteries doesn't work so well. These are the areas where having energy in a sort of molecular clean molecular form allows you to do more. The first sort of big examples that come to mind here things like shipping and aviation, these are not uses that you can plug them in, and the batteries in that kind of use can actually just infeasible or can can reduce payload to such a degree that you wouldn't actually be able to use those forms of transportation. So that's where hydrogen comes into its own because it's a means of being able to decarbonise these really hard to abate parts of our economy. And it extends to things like green cement, green IoT, green steel. There are really high temperature processes and areas where in fact existing uses for hydrogen are there, but it's sort of the fossil fuel version. And if we convert this to the green version of hydrogen, we can decarbonise heavy industry as well 

Alec: [00:03:32] when we generate renewable electricity from solar farms or wind turbines. It's sort of a use it or lose it situation. You use the electricity or you lose it unless you store it now. Battery storage has some use cases, but it's not really where it needs to be in terms of being able to provide, you know, like the scale that we need and where hydrogen comes in. It's the opportunity to store that energy, transport it and use it when and where we need it in the future. 

Fiona Simon: [00:04:01] Yeah, that's right. Absolutely. With electricity generation, you need to be able to use it sort of almost instantaneously. And with batteries, you know, there's a huge benefit, but they don't last forever. The energy will leak away. Or you do end up with sort of enormous rates of battery, which will reduce the efficiency of things like that, as I said, ships and heavy trucks and things like that. So that's where hydrogen as a as a means of storing renewable electricity energy in its in its molecular form does allow you to then have that through space and time version of taking your energy. 

Bryce: [00:04:36] So there's plenty of debate around brown hydrogen, blue hydrogen and green hydrogen. What's your view on the different types of options to generate hydrogen,

Fiona Simon: [00:04:49] much like electricity? Hydrogen is something which we manufacture, and it's an energy carrier, so there's different ways of making our hydrogen from different sources. It's those different ways that they can get denoted by these colours. The brown hydrogen option or you'll hear black hydrogen or grey hydrogen. So they sort of Dollars Dollars colours tends to get associated with the. Additional way of making hijinx, we do make it right now for industrial purposes, which is using fossil fuels, and so you are there are emissions associated with the making of those Bozella colours. And so we make it from coal and from and from natural gas. What we're all talking about about this future for hydrogen, the the hydrogen economy, the means to decarbonise our economy is when we're talking about making green hydrogen or clean hydrogen. So this is where much like we can make electricity from coal or we can make it from renewables. In this case, we know if we use renewable electricity and water through a process called electrolysis, you can actually make hydrogen, which is what we call it, green hydrogen, and it is pretty much zero emissions. The clean version is sort of a bit the same as the blue version, and blue hydrogen is when you're making it with fossil fuels. But then you actually use something like carbon capture, use and storage or offsets so that the the end result is a net zero one, but there was carbon involved in the making of the hydrogen. Mm-Hmm. So it's a hugely contested space right now as to where does the future lie with, you know, with the different colours? We absolutely are talking about the long term being green, but there's a debate about whether you need the blue version so, so hydrogen made aside from natural gas, but with CCS. But whether you need that as a bridging mechanism to get you to scale for great and that's speeding and that's highly contested at the moment. Just to be clear, though, we know hydrogen actually doesn't have a colour. It's odourless, it's colourless. Everything about it has no colour. Right? Yeah. But like this purple hydrogen and turquoise hydrogen, there's all sorts of different versions of hydrogen that people are talking about globally that denote how it's made. But at every point, it's just the actual hydrogen, and you can't tell by looking at it. 

Alec: [00:07:07] Important clarification there. So Fiona as CEO of the Australian Hydrogen Council, I guess you'd you'd have a really good view of what's happening in Australia, but also how that compares to the world. So would love to hear what your view is on Australia's hydrogen industry. Australia's hydrogen policy settings and how that compares, I guess, to the rest of the world in terms of the adoption of this hydrogen opportunity. 

Fiona Simon: [00:07:32] We're doing pretty well. So Australia is right up there in terms of the sort of commitment that we've seen from our federal government and our states and our territories. I mean, there's over $1.1 billion of funding that's been announced by the federal government and well over 300 million dollars worth of funding that's been announced by the states and territories. Everyone's pretty excited about the role that Australia can play globally in hydrogen. Because of our renewable energy, we're really being seen as being a potential leader, if not globally, at least in our region, to potentially export vast amounts of hydrogen to countries that don't have that ability to make their own hydrogen. And so we have a hydrogen strategy which identified those opportunities, which came in November 2019 because the low emissions technology roadmap that came out last year, where it covers hydrogen, amongst other things. And you might hear about the phrase H2 under two, which is this idea that we're trying to get to scale to get the price of hydrogen less to less than $2 a kilogram. So we're right up there in terms of those sorts of announcements, which is great. There's still a lot more to do, though, and I think globally that's what everyone's tackling because a billion dollars sounds like a lot of money, and obviously it is. But what we're talking about here and in getting to this scale in actually having a truly sort of net zero energy system really will involve enormous investments. And really a lot of that taken before you get near the hydrogen is the renewable electricity that's going to be required to even just take coal out of our out of our networks, let alone to to charge our cars of the future and then let alone for us to develop a green steel industry and export steel overseas. So we're talking, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars of investment that's required. Everyone's upping the ante across the world. So the US announced nine point five billion dollars US for hydrogen last month, and that was within a much, much larger hundreds of billions of dollars announcement about transitioning and what that means for the economy. The UK has done something similar. They are looking at aggressive and ambitious targets for creating hydrogen cells, and we're competing also as an export nation with countries that also have land and also have sun and also have wings. So Saudi Arabia and Morocco, Chile and Portugal, everyone's stepping up and wanting to compete in this new potential. Global industry will see the geopolitics of energy will. Will change. We still have a lot further to go, which is why we the Australian Housing Council, we've just put out a white paper at the start of the week where we are arguing where we need to put some some more policy and investment focus in Australia in order to have a no regrets and no regrets approach to hydrogen and net zero more broadly. 

Alec: [00:10:36] Now, Fiona, you mentioned export, there are a couple of times, and I think that's a really important part of this conversation to delve deep on because, you know, hydrogen traditionally has been quite unstable to transport. You know, people think of when people think of hydrogen, they think of maybe the Hindenburg. But technology has come a long way from there in terms of making hydrogen stable to transport, and a lot of that's been led by Australian researchers and the CSIRO. So can you explain how technology has sort of moved and allowed this opportunity to export to arise? And then maybe talk to us about what the what the size of the opportunity is here? What could it mean for Australia if we capitalise on this export opportunity? 

Fiona Simon: [00:11:22] Essentially, we still haven't cracked this nut of how we're going to export Horsham. So that again is an area which is is is up for grabs. It's being addressed by a number of different parties. And generally, the view seems to be right now that if you were to export hydrogen, you would export it in. It's in it's a derivative as ammonia, and that's something where people already know how to transport it. It has its challenges also, but ammonia is something which which can be transported. It's a known quantity when we're talking about transporting hydrogen in its pure form over very large distances. So this sort of international distances, people tend to talk about hydrogen being shipped in a liquid form. Now, the only way to really transport hydrogen over long distances is to compress, compress it and compress it because it's very light. And to get that value, you need it in its most sort of concentrated form. But compressing that hydrogen to the point where it's turned from a gas into a liquid is enormously costly in terms of the energy that's required and the energy, therefore that you're losing from from that which you were seeking to capitalise on because you've got to compress it down to two cryogenic temperatures. So there is work going on about, well, can there be a means of transporting hydrogen at cryogenic temperatures over vast distances? But that's something which is still in its early days. But we've actually got a world leading experiment in that space or trial in that space in Victoria, which is the hydrogen energy supply chain, which is something which is making actually blue hydrogen. But the real focus of this is for the Japanese working with Australia to look at the vessel that would transport that liquid hydrogen. But that's still in a reasonably small amount, and it's on the basis of trying to understand how does this work? So there are multiple ways of thinking about it. We also have a member that is talking about and really developing a business case for compressed compressed hydrogen as a gas, and they develop the ship and they have the full supply chain. So right now, it's a bit of a race that's on between different parties with different economic, technological and engineering solutions. And the solution, if there was one solution right now, it's not clear what that is. And it may be, in fact, that there are multiple solutions for different purposes. So if you 

Bryce: [00:13:54] are there any countries that you think you know the gold standard when it comes to hydrogen policy, I 

Fiona Simon: [00:14:01] have to say no batteries. 

Bryce: [00:14:04] We have an opportunity. 

Fiona Simon: [00:14:05] Then we do. We do. I think what we look at the Japanese and they actually have a plan. So it's like we will hit this many fuel cell electric vehicles on this, many refuelling stations, what they state that's sort of set of targets is vital. So if I was to sort of cherry pick across the country, across the globe, what are those doing well that we don't do? It would be targets and standards, and some countries are doing that. In other cases, it's, you know, the US with its equivalent to $13 billion Australian, that it announced the 9.5 billion that that's showing an assessment of scale that starts to give the market some comfort about how big this is. And and the sort of, you know that those government dollars that get invested that then draws three three to four times as much from the private sector. So I'd say that there's no one out there who's doing it. He's doing a great job across all criteria. Or rather, it's not about not doing a great job. But but as in highly advanced well beyond where we are, it is just a matter of observing closely where countries can both state or target states and milestones and then match that talk with the walk on funding and a recognition of infrastructure investment. That's what we need and the countries that so get cracking in that space are the ones that will actually take the lead because they're doing what they need to do to start markets. 

Alec: [00:15:35] Now, Fiona, where? And investing podcast here, and, you know, investing by its nature, is looking into the future and I guess trying to make some predictions about where the world is going, and you know, we're saying right now in 2021, you know, a lot of governments investing in the space, a lot of commitments being made around adoption of hydrogen and a lot of companies getting very interested in the hydrogen space. I mean, no more notable in Australia than Fortescue and what they're looking to do in the space. If you think forward, you know, 10 or 20 years from now, can you give us a sense of what role hydrogen could be playing, not just in Australia but across the world in terms of the world's energy mix? 

Fiona Simon: [00:16:18] We might need to even go further than that, but so 10 years is when we've really established a foundation, and that foundation may actually look quite different from then. Another 20 years from there, where there's not only a foundation, but we've really built upon that and established entire markets, and some of these opportunities are also really long lived. So when we're talking about green iron and green steel and the idea of Australia upping its its exports in that space and making it green using hydrogen, it's really been identified that those opportunities will be hitting around 2050. But there's so much that needs to happen that needs to start happening now in order to be ready for that in order to get the milestones organised to that point. So if I in fact go to 2050 2060 and say, what does the world look like then? Because that's kind of the future state we are talking about, then what we would have is is hydrogen or hydrogen derivatives. As I said, ammonia, or you could have methanol or seen fuels that are made using hydrogen. They'll be running our planes. They'll be fuelling all of our international air and maritime transport. It's likely to be managing, particularly like mining truck kind of heavy transport road trains in Australia. And ideally, it'll actually be down to the sort of the van and the truck level and the buses because we've managed to get the infrastructure in place to close the economic gaps and those fronts. So at the very least, we'd say that we've got these sort of transportation fuels opportunity, but we'd also be using it, as I said, in industry, so we could have a booming ammonia industry that's based on clean hydrogen and that's fertiliser for the world's agriculture. It's the green steel piece. It's alumina and aluminium. And ideally, we get to the stage where we could be using hydrogen for sort of medium process heating. But that's yet to be determined as to really where, where the technology and where the engineering, the economics go. 

Bryce: [00:18:22] If you could estimate, how large do you think that this market could be for hydrogen both Australia and globally? Like what would you guess the size of the economic opportunity to be or estimate the size to be the 

Fiona Simon: [00:18:34] best geological strategy? I think it was $26 billion a year GDP by 2050 coming from this industry. But you'll see numbers that are much larger than that. Essentially, this is there are so many different ways this could unfold, but the opportunities really are enormous. But we have to then match match that with a bit of a down payment now, and that's the challenge. Yeah.

Bryce: [00:19:00] Well, I certainly hope that we do not miss this opportunity. It feels like Australia is has it right in front of us to take advantage of of this growing industry. And and yeah, I think it would be great to see Australia become the Saudi Arabia Arabia of renewables. So yes, stuck to some Dr Song, we very much appreciate you coming on and sharing your insights into what is a fascinating industry, and I'm sure our Equity Mates community took a lot of value from that. So thank you very much. 

Fiona Simon: [00:19:30] Thank you for having me. 

Bryce: [00:19:31] As we have done in our previous episode with ETF securities, we're now joined by Kanish Chugh, who is the head of distribution at ETF Securities Australia, to help us unpack a bit more about the opportunity that the ETF Securities Hydrogen ETF presents. Welcome to Equity Mates. 

Kanish Chugh: [00:19:49] Thanks for having me again. 

Bryce: [00:19:50] So you guys have recently released a new ETF tracking the global hydrogen industry. It's called ETFs Hydrogen ETF. The ASX code is HGEN. Hgen provides exposure to the hydrogen economy, including things like fuel cells, electrolysis refuelling stations and green hydrogen. And we've just heard how interesting an industry this is going to the future. So let's start at the top. Why create a hydrogen ETF? You know what sort of insights led you and the team to believe that this was an important theme to give investors exposure to 

Kanish Chugh: [00:20:26] what we found when talking to clients when getting feedback on this one, when looking globally as well. So something that we do when developing a new ETF is one from. Security standpoint, we want to find innovative, you know, we want to come out with exposure that are unique to the market and also something that people would like to see when thinking about clean technology, thinking about, you know, net zero emissions and a lot of talk, you know, the public around that from governments. And I know whenever ScoMo talks about getting to net zero or that focus your thoughts about technology. So if you think about the clean energy technology, what would that look like? How can people invest in it? So we know we've got to act as one of our easiest way to invest that exposure and battery tech. And so that that's sort of that area of clean technology. So we've always got sort of an eye already. And hydrogen for us is where it's where battery technology was maybe five or 10 years ago. So the hydrogen megatrend, you know, hydrogen as an energy source of old, it's a very old source of energy. But what's new about it is green hydrogen so that you can potentially produce a form of energy that has a zero footprint and that can really expand into not only from the consumer aspect. So, you know, helping fuel aeroplanes and ships, but also from an agriculture perspective. So even from an industrial construction area doing steel mills, etc. So, you know, hydrogen something called the Swiss Army knife and decarbonisation issues as an energy source that produces a nice. It can be used in a lot of different ways. I think that's for us where we see it, and I think there will be sort of more expansion into these sorts of areas around megatrends as well. 

Alec: [00:22:15] Swiss Army knife of decarbonisation. That's a good line, Candace. And I think that might be the title for this episode. But I think when we when you think about the hydrogen industry, there's a lot of players and a lot of companies that are looking to play in the space. And I guess that would have presented a real challenge when actually building this ETF and constructing rules for this ETF. And you know, my mind goes to companies like AGL, one of Australia's biggest coal fired power station operators that are looking to get into the hydrogen space. And similarly, companies like Fortescue, who are, you know, known as iron ore miners and derive most of their profits from iron ore mining, but are looking to invest heavily in hydrogen. So when you are confronted with, you know, this industry and this challenge and trying to build an ETF around it, where did you land in terms of roles? You know, do these companies have to be pure play hydrogen companies or can they be companies like Fortescue that are just making meaningful investments in the space? Where did you land in constructing the ETF? 

Kanish Chugh: [00:23:17] Investors are trying to find the, you know, when you're taking a sabbatical that wanting to invest in a mega trend. What are some of the rules? And one of those rules is ensuring that the assets that they've chosen represents the matters that they want exposure to or to make it so that they want exposure to. So when we're building ETFs such as hydrogen, we want to make sure it's as pure play as possible. In theory, you can build an ETF on hydrogen and just say, well, any company involved in hydrogen somewhere should be included. But that's not really a pure play on the hydrogen thematic because you've got companies, as you mentioned, such as Fortescue or AGL, or whatever it may be, it could be a very in my new part of the total revenue that is focussed on hydrogen. So for us, we worked with Solar Active Now, So Active is a global index manager and the index that hydrogen is tracking, it's the selected Global Hydrogen ESG Index, so which at a high level is a portfolio of 30 stocks from developed markets, plus Korea and Taiwan that have a heavy exposure to hydrogen. But to get to that point, it's really difficult. So with a lot of the it's very hard to just go, Okay, I'm going to just find, you know, as I mentioned, there's no quantification of a hydrogen company because when you think about the hydrogen economy, it's from fuel cells manufacturers to, you know, the equipment manufacturers that are involved in the process, you know, the electrolysis. So is that being awarded to split out the oxygen and the hydrogen to even when you think about the refuelling stations of the infrastructure, there's all these different types of companies involved. So what solar did was they looked at how did they identify companies involved in the hydrogen economy? They've got this tool that they've developed called artists, and it's basically a natural language processing algorithm. So like an A.I. tool that does, you know, look at keywords and it uses that key words to describe the index by companies in the ranking, a score based on that artist's technology that have a significant exposure to hydrogen. So that's the first step. So one, it's defining the unit. So they've done that using that sort of access tool. And then the next step is, well, we don't. We want companies in there that are potentially focussed on brown or grey hydrogen, which is the fossil fuel companies, so we want those removed. So any company that is sort of an oil, coal and gas company is not in this index. You also remove companies such as auto manufacturers or oil and refining and marketing oil, oilfield services and equipment, for example. We don't want those who want this to be a pure play on the fanatic. And then as a final step, we've actually looked at it from the perspective of applying an ESG filter as well. So that just adds another safeguard from where we sat to ensure that there's no sort of more fossil fuel companies, incumbents non-compliant and that the United Nations Global Compact that was really important for us. So you get to this basically a portfolio of third names. But then we're taking it a step further and you mentioned it in your question about pure plays. And I think that's really important. According to Selective, they've identified companies that are pure play in the hydrogen scene and non pure plays. And so a pure play as a 10 percent limit on how much weight we can have on the stock and in non pure play is a company that can have a four percent stock limit. So if it's a fuel cell, equipment and tech provider, or thermal and chemical processing machinery makers, essentially companies that are really involved in the hydrogen economy, their pure plays. And so again, index it lends itself to really providing investors with a pure idea on what is the hydrogen automatic. It's not going to include, for example, Tesla is not in the index, it's a battery company. Even if there was some linkage in some way, it's not in there. There's no Australian names at the moment, so something like Fortescue does doesn't feature it. But if Fortescue and Hydrogen became a bigger part of the revenue and they could feature well, then yes, potentially 

Bryce: [00:27:29] they could finish just coming off the conversation that we had with Fiona. There's no doubt hydrogen seems like a particular opportunity for Australia, but then I guess that begs the question why adopt a global focus for this ETF? 

Kanish Chugh: [00:27:42] I think the reason when we're looking at the Nordics, we want it to be sector agnostic. We want it to be country agnostic. The reason being is if you focus just on a particular country or a particular sector, you're excluding a lot. There isn't enough also from an Australian perspective, to be pure plays in the hydrogen space, then enlisted listed for as well. And that's important. You know, there's also minimum market cap that stock has to get to before they can be featured in the index, and that's us $100 million. So even if there was some smaller companies that are involved in the hydrogen economy as their focus, they have to hit those those limits that those minimum sort of liquidity requirements are currently. Unfortunately, there isn't just enough Australian companies to make a portfolio to represent the hydrogen economy. So for us, we wanted to look at it from a global perspective. We didn't want to look at it just from developed markets, which is why it's expanded to include Korea and Taiwan. Because, you know, they are some, you know, heavily focussed companies within the hydrogen space, especially from the fuel cell and the tech area that are from Taiwan. And Chris, that includes all developed markets, plus Korea and Taiwan. So we look, as I said, it could be in the future that we have some Australian names in there as it stands with the fund just launching. There is currently no Australian company. 

Alec: [00:29:00] Yeah, hopefully you do have some Australian names because that will be indicative that Australia has got its act together and really work to create a hydrogen industry. If we keep our focus global Candace and we talk about some of the biggest companies in this ETF. What are some of the biggest holdings? You know? What do they do? What should we know about them? Why should we be excited about them? 

Kanish Chugh: [00:29:22] Yes, a lot of the biggest holdings of all the throw, for example, when I looked at is companies like Plug Panel. So Plug Power is probably the famous name in the hydrogen economy space. It primarily makes the fuel cells that you use to turn hydrogen into energy. It's an American company that's got to go to nine per cent waste in the portfolio, and the fuel cells are mainly used in very niche areas like electric forklifts. You know, some of the top customers include Walmart, Home Depot, Amazon. But the good thing with this company is it's actually trying to expand along the value chain. It's acquiring green hydrogen producers as well. So this is growing in that space. So that's what one of the most well-known some of the others and some of the top five include Ballard Power Systems, ITM, Power Douce and Fuel Cell. So I'll just name, by the way, a UK company, a South Korean company, a Canadian company, and I'm being a U.S. company. So again, globally diverse. It's a company called Nell Nell NASA. It's a Norwegian company. It's got its fingers in many what we call the hydrogen pie. It's one of the oldest companies in the world that produces hydrogen from water. So we're talking a green hydrogen now is one of those companies that. In this space, for a while, they run really large electrolyser plants in Norway and essentially the hydrogen that they produce, a green hydrogen is going to make ammonia from the agricultural sites. But it now also runs some of the world's largest factories that make hydrogen refuelling stations, which tops up power buses, cars, etc. But they're also working with Tesla's competitor, Nikola, to produce electrolyser at its refuelling stations. So again, it's widening out that hydrogen infrastructure. So you've got an example there, a fuel cell maker in plug or a company like Nel that works on actually producing the green hydrogen themself. And that's sort of where we sit in this space. It's not just a particular focus, it's global, and it looks at many different areas and there's more than just one area. And that's the thing. You know, when we were thinking about the hydrogen, the valley, it's growing in where it sits, and it's definitely going to be a real big force to be reckoned with in the future. 

Bryce: [00:31:37] Do you have any idea how large the future hydrogen industry could be? 

Kanish Chugh: [00:31:43] Alan Megatrend We often talk about the mega trend needs to be indicative outside the trend of has government support. If you think about the hydrogen space currently, you're starting to see government support and governments around the world on average have around eleven point four billion US dollars a year that get poured into hydrogen projects. And Europe by far is leading that space. And if you want to look at the country that leads in hydrogen, look at Iceland. It's funny all the talk of the Nordics when you think about these sorts of clean technology areas, but Iceland is really leading the pack. It's looking to go fully hydrogen powered by 2030. That'll be interesting to see as a case study. But in terms of as an industry and where it sits and BloombergNEF, it's a really useful energy research on firm. Sorry, they forecast that hydrogen takes up about 20 percent of the energy market by 2050, so that's up about five percent from today. And then to put it into Dollars senses, the hydrogen economy currently is from the revenue base has had about $142 million in 2019, and it's estimated that it could hit about four trillion in revenue by 2050. So for all of us, you know, we just launched a semiconductor ETF in the semiconductor ETF is a mature industry. But people say the hydrogen industry right now, it's a greenfield investment opportunity. It's what the internet was in the 90s. You know what the iPhone was in the early 2000s? That's what hydrogen is at the moment. And where it could end up is, as I said, it could be transformational in terms of helping us all hit that net zero emissions. Now there's a lot more focus on, 

Bryce: [00:33:22] well, I certainly love what you guys are doing. I love the concentration in the ETS that you guys are putting out. You mentioned AC DC at the top there and it's been going incredibly well. So yeah, I think you guys have your finger on the pulse when it comes to ETFs that are important for our future. And this is no doubt another great example of that. So absolute pleasure having you on, as always, Kennish. And we're looking forward to getting you on soon. So as always, appreciate your time. Thanks for having me. Hey, thanks for listening to this episode of Equity Mates. We love hearing from you, so drop us a line at or even better, go to your podcast player and leave a five star review. Also, a reminder that the Equity Mates content train doesn't stop when you've run out of episodes to binge. We've got a brand new website, a Facebook discussion group where on Instagram, YouTube and slowly making our way as an influencer on Tik-tok. Well, that's Ren. So come and say hello and join the community. We'd love to welcome you. Until next time.

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